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Welcome back, curious legal minds, to LexDiscuss Cafe.

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This is the second part of our interview with Mr. Aman Yadav, who is currently working as

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counsel at OLX Global.

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If you haven't tuned into the part 1, fear not, we'll hold the verdict on this fascinating

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conversation until you catch up.

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Just follow the link in the description.

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In the first part, Mr. Yadav sheds light on his career journey and skills to excel in

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a corporate legal department.

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Buckle up because today we are diving head first in the hottest topic in the legal sphere,

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generative AI.

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We will explore the potential of rules like Chad GPT for streamlining corporate legal

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tasks.

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We will also play a very interesting rapid fire round with Aman in full Karan Johar style.

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So Aman, now let's get into the heart of this podcast.

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When the Chad GPT came out, what was your initial impressions there?

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Initial impression was to totally ignore it.

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Right.

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Initial impression was that another gimmick, I don't know how I'm going to use it.

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It's not helpful.

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It's not going to make my life easier.

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This seems like another way of promoting a software which does not do much.

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And then did your impression change or do you hold the same view?

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It changed totally.

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Okay.

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When one day I put in a request into Chad GPT just to test it out.

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So I had a legal team member, a junior level lawyer whose entire job was to send reminders

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for car registration transfers to dealers.

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Right.

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Just to send a letter to them or something similar.

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I'm forgetting.

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Very routine, very clerical.

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Just you have entered data and you send the letter.

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One day I was sitting in my room.

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I put it on Chad GPT.

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It asked me the car registration number and a few details.

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And within a few seconds it started typing.

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So first I was very amused.

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I thought some very poor result is going to come out.

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Right.

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It's going to be a nonsense.

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And suddenly I see that letter typed out in maybe 10 seconds.

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I'm exaggerating.

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It may be less than that.

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It was so quick and it was beautiful.

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It was way better than what that junior used to do.

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Right.

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Then I realized this is helpful and dangerous because if I show this to our business team,

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they'll quickly tell me then what you do.

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Right.

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No, absolutely.

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But you don't need to really need to worry because as I keep telling everyone that AI

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is not going to replace the lawyers, lawyers using AI will replace other lawyers.

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Now what has happened is because we are also grappling with it on all the processes that

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we are doing here internally.

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What I'll tell you is that what AI is doing is now status quo.

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If you're doing as good of a job as AI is doing, then you're producing no value whatsoever.

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So the best step would be to start what AI is doing and then start adding value to it.

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Because what happens is we are humans, right?

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How many pages can we read in our whole lifetime?

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If you really think about it, it's not going to be somewhere more than like 15,000 or 20,000

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pages.

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But for an AI, it's a matter of minutes.

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Right.

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When it comes to reading a lot of data and coming up with something short, that's something

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AI can do really well.

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Right.

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So let it do that.

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Now let's start adding value on top of it.

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So that's I think is a sure shot way of beating AI and staying relevant.

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That's what we are trying to do because my organization also started when AI didn't exist.

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And now a lot of the work that I used to do is being done by AI.

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And to be honest, part of these interviews questions are also generated by AI.

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Right.

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No, the thing is, right, if the AI is doing a better job at me, I would be like, you know,

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I would be benefit me if I said, okay, I will not use it because it's not generated by me.

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Doesn't that kind of mean that people who are older reached a certain level where they

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don't need to do the basic work?

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Right.

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They are safe.

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And it depends.

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I mean, I don't know.

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I'm just thinking out loud.

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Right.

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But people who are just graduating interns, that work which I would give to an intern

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or to a junior lawyer who's one or two years out of law school, that can be done by AI.

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So for them, it's pretty dangerous.

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For me, it's not because people still need me.

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Absolutely.

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So see, this is what the scare that I am getting.

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Right.

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So now the thing is that, you know, people are keep saying that, you know, okay, it will

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not replace lawyers.

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Right.

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But in a lot of ways is replacing people we used to hire initially would like, you know,

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spend a lot of time and get to my level.

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Right.

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Businesses are not hiring as many freshers as they do right now.

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You were also a fresher one day and you also did that, you know, the dirty work and slowly

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and gradually reached to at this level.

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So right now, absolutely, your job is absolutely safe.

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Right.

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Because AI...

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Right.

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You are saying something.

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Please, please.

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That is the scary part.

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So I remember for the first one and a half years, all my boss gave me were legal notices

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because he wanted me to learn through them and I was very happy doing that.

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I became very good at legal.

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I learned a lot from them.

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138 notices, section 138, basic notices, civil, criminal, whatever, anything which has to

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be sent, I would do it.

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But that learning is sort of getting taken away by if I can now, let's say if I have

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a panel for an NBFC, I have to shoot out day-to-day notices for dues recovery.

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I don't need a junior for it.

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I don't need four of them.

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I need one of them who's going to type in to chat GPT and he's going to end the result.

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Right.

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So that's before that.

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It's pretty, it seems to be dangerous.

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I don't know.

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Maybe I'm wrong.

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Right.

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No, no.

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See, that's something I kind of worry of as well.

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And, you know, so one of the things that, you know, I get a lot of people saying that,

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you know, the AI will never replace lawyers, but they kind of forget that how did we learn?

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The first step of learning is always imitation.

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If you have a kid, probably you'll understand that, you know, the kid starts using the words.

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It's here around.

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Right.

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And whenever we are like painting, like they will tell you to ask, like, you know, paint

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anything.

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And that's why I'm worried about.

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I'm scared of the potential of the AI because when it comes to learning by rebuilding, it

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is quite good at, in certain ways, it is much better than humans.

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That's what I'll say that, you know, like ignoring this technology would kill you, would

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actually kill you.

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Right.

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That's what my two cents on it.

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I even tell my dad to like, you know, keep using it, staying updated on it and the retired

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person now, but he says like half of his job would be obsolete if he had chat GPT.

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So that's, that's what you're saying exactly.

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I mean, not just if we don't talk about legal juries coming out of school or interns, that

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is prevalent.

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Even if let's say in government offices where you would have people like typists or clerks

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only typing out things, letters, somebody would write on a piece of paper with a pen.

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They used to be a time when they were typewriters, you know, type it out on a paper and then

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the government department will send it.

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So the boss would issue those instructions, those people are banned now.

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And there were people who would continue to be clerks when they retired.

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I mean, you're a 60 year old clerk in let's say the ministry of home affairs.

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And you would be doing the same thing and your family would survive on it.

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Right.

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But now you're a 60 year old clerk because chat GPT is going to do it for you immediately.

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Absolutely.

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And if you go back to your observation, right, it should know how to write.

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But that's where like it gets worried because right now, if I am being competed against,

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I would make certain grammatical mistake if I'm writing the 10 pages of anything, right?

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Chat GPT is not going to do any of such mistakes, right?

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Even though it might not be as intelligent, it might not be as original.

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But for the mundane stuff, for the routine stuff, it's going to be substantially better.

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That's what I believe next decade is going to be.

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And for the first time, I see that lawyers would have to adapt at a rate they never had

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to.

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Other than email, if you think about it, how legal practice have been operated for the

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last 300 years.

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Other than email and the legal research, more or less, it's exactly the same if you just

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take away online filing.

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It's exactly the same way Ganesh Ji was to practice in this 21st century, we are operating

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in the same way.

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So many jobs you think of like ghost writing, you don't need ghost writers, chat GPT is

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for you.

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Right.

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Absolutely.

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People keep putting their nuggets of wisdom on LinkedIn.

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Right.

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There are so many jobs which these, I don't know what to call them, but these jobs will

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go away.

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This builds me to the next topic.

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I kind of have this unique role where I am interacting with lawyers as much, I am interacting

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with computer engineers as much, I'm interacting with marketers as much.

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And when I look at the level of adoption and the level of excitement in these three categories,

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I would say the lawyers are like really lagging behind.

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So what is your opinion on it?

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Like why does that happen?

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And is it a good thing?

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And if not, how can we address it?

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See, I think on the top of my mind, I can say there are two reasons.

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One is actually both are fear related because one is that, you know, that this thing can

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take away your job.

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So there are many people who are still doing very routine things day in, day out.

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I mean, let's say somebody in a big company, like working in a government department in

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the legal department, they're still doing very routine things.

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There are people you can very easily figure out that they're not doing a lot of high level

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stuff even if they're in the legal department.

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So if I'm there, I would never want chat GPT to come in there.

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Second, I believe that lawyers have always have this fear of being wrong in the setting,

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wrong opinion, wrong advice, wrong advocacy.

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So relying totally on chat GPT is also a little unnerving because you don't know if it's

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going to be right or wrong.

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So it's okay to be wrong when you did it and you tried your best, but spending only a couple

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of minutes on chat GPT and putting in your query and getting a legal opinion, what if

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it's wrong?

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And it has happened.

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There were cases in the newspaper where somebody quoted a judgment which did not even exist.

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That being wrong, I think is very strong in lawyers and that is also leading to the lack

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of adoption.

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Makes sense.

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And, and you see, this is where I see the root cause of the problem, because what happens

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when I am talking to the marketers, they are not that afraid of making mistakes or good

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results.

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Like I will talk to marketers and they will say that our thing is finding that one marketing

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campaign which just blows everything out of the water.

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And there will be like, you know, five to six dud campaigns, but it's okay.

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As long as we are experimenting at a nice pace that, you know, we are able to consistently

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keep finding that one amazing marketing campaign.

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But if you look at the lawyers, they would never be happy with this equation.

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They will say like, we have to be right 100% of the time and that as an external council

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makes sense.

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But as an in-house council, what are your thoughts on that?

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You see, again, the same thing, even if it's not a junior level lawyer, right?

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So if I'm practicing in the high court and 50% of my work is criminal, where I'm, let's

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say, filing quashing petitions, so I've never tried asking Chad GBD to draft a quashing

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petition.

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But what if it does that in a couple of minutes and I am in a habit of charging 50k just for

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drafting the first version of it, how do I justify that money when I know that this thing

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is doing it for me in a couple of minutes?

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So those sort of things, I think, is why we lawyers are a little hesitant in writing it

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and really allowing it to take over because we're not really trying to save time.

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It has a lot to do with the historical mean, which the legal profession has operated.

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I mean, it's nothing new, like an ad campaign, like you, because you mentioned ad and marketing

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and ad campaign, you can't have the same ad campaign again and again and again, but you

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can have the same petition.

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You just have to change the dates and the facts here and there.

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You can add up that you can do it for 20 years.

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Right.

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That's, I think, is to the crust of matter.

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Do you think that, you know, as a legal professionals, especially the external councils, they are

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not financially incentivized to be more productive?

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They're actually financially disincentivized to be more productive, right?

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Because the less productive they are, the more money they are able to charge their client

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or businesses.

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I see it very similar to what happened when COVID had struck and people do online hearings.

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It leveraged the playing field to a certain extent in the sense that people were not going

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to senior lawyers or to high profile lawyers or even mid-level lawyers.

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Okay.

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They knew that they can hire anybody from anywhere.

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So people were hiring local lawyers also.

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Some of the matters are not rocket science.

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You don't need to go to a very good lawyer.

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You can have a basic lawyer also prepare and argue and hybrid version of court hearings,

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online hearings, they leveled it to a certain level.

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I think the same thing is happening with chat GPT.

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It's leveling the playing field.

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You don't need to really go for a very expensive, high profile or even mid-profile lawyer.

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You can have your petition drafted by your local lawyer and he'll argue it.

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So I think that way it is also leveling the field and which is why people feel it's dangerous

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some of them.

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Makes sense.

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And you know, one of the productions that I have for the next decade is that I believe

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that the biggest loss is going to be the big law firms who are charging a filthy load of

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money.

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Because I think chat GPT and similar tools will also give a solo lawyer a benefit of

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having a clerk or benefit of having a paralegal benefit of having a, you know, administrative

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assistant who can, you know, properly send reminders to the email.

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So all the benefits of working in a big law firm when you join, you'll get, you'll have

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like a plethora of templates, which will cover almost everything imaginable that's going

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to happen in this case.

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And you will have like a secretary, you will have a clerk there, you will have everything

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taken care of and you just go there and you just focus on the law part.

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And now I think as a solo practitioners, you'll also have everything, all those benefits,

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right?

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It would be harder for the law firms to justify their higher prices, but let's see how the

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prediction turns out.

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So now as we're running out of the time, let's come to the rapid fire question.

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So you have to answer it very quickly.

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So the first question is guilty or not guilty staying up all the night to finish a legal

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brief.

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Not anymore.

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Not anymore.

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What was that for?

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Last time.

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When was the last time you stayed up all night?

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Last time was maybe five, six years ago.

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Ah, it's not that late.

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Lucky, lucky.

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So next question, pineapple on pizza or no?

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Never.

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Never?

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Okay.

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Okay.

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If somebody asks you, are you a paper airplane champion or keyboard shortcut master?

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Who would you be?

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Paper airplane champion.

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Good.

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Okay.

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If your biography is written today, what would be its title?

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It's interesting.

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Never thought about it.

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See, we also ask interesting question.

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I still don't believe that.

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So maybe it's going to say he's dead.

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Bye bye.

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He's dead.

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But you're not dead.

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It's written today.

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It's written today.

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It's written today right now.

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So what will be the like the title of the story your life so far?

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I don't have a good answer.

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You don't have to be a good answer.

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It has to be an honest answer.

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It should say he tried his best.

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I think that's what we all can offer.

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And I think that's the best title.

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We only have time for one last question.

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So do you have any advice for aspiring lawyers who want to pursue a career like yours, especially

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in the generative AI, right?

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What would be your suggestions?

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You see, earlier I used to give advice to everybody to read a lot.

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But now I don't really know how good that advice is.

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But even when you will still need to rack your brains, you will still need to do the

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logical reasoning to arrive at answers, whether it's law firm or in-house.

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It's in fact going to become tougher for them because there was a time when you could even

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for basic answers, only those junior lawyers who read up, only they would be able to answer

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right now.

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Basic information is at the tip of your hands.

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If you have that ready, then you will have to think about the next level.

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By putting in a question and getting the answer, you need to then be very good at analyzing

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it and or rating it in the sense it is not just about the written data anymore.

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If you have to go with a chat GPT answer to your boss or to the business team or anybody

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as a lawyer, now you need to explain it very well because they don't want to sit on chat

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GPT.

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They don't know what to put in.

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So it's now going to come more on the verbal side of it.

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How do I explain it?

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Because now everybody has info.

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Wow.

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Great advice there.

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So Aman, thanks a lot for coming on the podcast.

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It was really interesting.

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One of the best podcasts so far.

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Thank you so much.

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Thank you for inviting me.

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How can we forget our listeners?

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Thanks for tuning in as we need to make the algorithm gods happy.

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So don't forget to like, share and subscribe for more entertaining conversations on law.

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Until next time, keep exploring the fascinating world of law.