Podcast with Nirav Bakshi, General Counsel, Blockchain Founders Fund (Part-2)

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Welcome back, dear listeners.

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We have peeled back the layers of blockchain and log with our guest Nirav Bakshi in the

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first part of our podcast.

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If you haven't listened to that episode, you can find the link for the same somewhere

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in the description.

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Now, I hope you have got your coffee refilled and your eagle muscles all stretched out because

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we are going to dive even deeper into the crypto world today.

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For people who were lucky enough to listen to the first part, I don't know about you

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guys, but I'm dying to hear what insights Nirav has in store for us.

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So Nirav, welcome back to our podcast and without wasting any time, let me ask you a

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fun question.

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So imagine that you are an AI and you are asked to create an image of blockchain plus

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lawyer.

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What would you make come out?

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With the things that are going around right now, I would think somebody with an 80s rock

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star kind of look with wave fairers and with a shirt buttoned down with a camera out there

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and extreme blonde hair sort of a thing and walking around with an iPad trying to pretend

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to do some work.

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Where is blockchain is on this?

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The lawyer has to represent blockchain as well somehow.

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No, but that attire that he has to adorn to win over clients who are in the blockchain

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space is him saying blockchain because honestly speaking, like a blockchain lawyers work in

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that sense is not very different from typical lawyer, like I think, right, because so many

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law firms now in the US, France and Singapore, they're all very typical people.

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It's just everybody just trying to grapple and to understand what it is and how it works.

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Like for a lack of a better word, I'd say it in Hindi, sab tuk ka maa.

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Yeah, actually, that's what happens when the field is new, the professionals are learning

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on the job.

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Now, if a new law comes out, they are not going to go back to the law school and like

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say mujhe phir se padhao, right?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Yeah.

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And that's true.

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Like even even when you look at something like AI apps in India, right, like for the

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longest time, nobody knew what any people thought.

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Everybody was just like setting up funds and copy pasting how vehicles were being set up

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in the US or Singapore for that matter and for again, for a lack of a better word, chapeauing

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it in India until SEBI came and started cracking down on those kind of structures.

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And they were like, look, you can't do this, you can't do that, you can't do this, you

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can't do that.

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Yes, that can be termed as not being investor friendly or that can be termed as not being

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GP friendly.

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But at the end of the day, I think SEBI was at the same time also learning the regulations

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and in hand the industry.

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So yeah, I understand what's happening and how it's happening.

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And unfortunately, we keep seeing that India has no regulations on crypto or has barely

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any regulations on crypto.

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The only option they know how to do is like ban stuff.

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But like it's pretty much like that every other place in the world.

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It's no better.

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Nobody has real robust regulations on crypto, whether there are regulatory sandboxes or there

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is some guidance.

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There is no codified law on crypto in most places in the world right now.

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And you can't have because there are new things happening every day, how much will you codify?

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Right.

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So again, my follow up question to that would be what do you think is the role of a lawyer

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in those kind of companies who are like on the cutting edge of technology and regulation

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is just around the corner?

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How do you mitigate risk in such a scenario?

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I mean, to an extent, I would think you can't because you can't predict what's going to

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happen.

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You can't prepare for the worst.

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So far, until at least AI develops that well.

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Correct, correct.

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Absolutely.

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And even then you would have, you would need that AI to tap into the minds of all the ministers

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and sort of give you some sort of answer, but like even like, yes, that's a way far

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out.

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A lawyer's role in that sense would be to be very well read in terms of what the countries

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which are similar to the country where the company is incorporated is doing and sort

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of guide or steer the company in a way where even if regulations were to come up tomorrow,

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you are likely to be either insulated or you're likely to be able to adapt to the regulations

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fairly quickly.

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Like GDPR, I think was a classical example, right?

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Everybody thought it coming.

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And now every single country in the world, even though GDPR is applicable only to Europe,

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starts gearing or changing their privacy policies in a manner which are GDPR compliant, because

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everybody knows that nothing is going to go beyond GDPR, while India might be an exception

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where it might just go beyond GDPR because India is very atypical like that.

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That's the best you can honestly do in this space.

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You can't go beyond that from a regulatory angle.

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But other than that, the job of a lawyer in these companies is going to be very typical

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in terms of like vetting, checking investment documents and things like that.

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So in that sense, there's nothing different, but anticipation of regulation is very important.

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That's something that even I sort of look at when we are investing in portfolio companies

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where they are based.

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But is it likely to run afoul of any regulation that may come?

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And if it does, then it directly impacts our position in that company because it may have

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to.

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And this could be in a very non-Blockchain angle also, like I'll give you an example.

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There was a company we were looking at that was based out of Germany and the German regulations

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changed on carbon credits, for example.

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Nothing to do with blockchain at all.

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But the company we were investing in had some sort of links to do with carbon credits through

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a blockchain.

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They had to shut down in Germany.

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They had to move on because the law changed and the law sort of required such companies

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that are dealing in carbon credits to have a broker's license for that.

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Now that's completely like out of left field, like you can't anticipate and there was nothing

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to do with blockchain.

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So I think in that sense, it's very typical and this can happen in any industry.

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Like it's nothing new that lawyers don't deal with.

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So in that sense, I don't think there's anything extra that people need to be prepared for.

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But yes, the pace at which it will get deployed when it gets deployed will be very rapid.

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You talked about staying updated, not just on law, but also the pulse of the country

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and in global companies, the pulse of countries the startup is operating in.

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Correct.

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In this context, I wanted to ask this question because all the corporate counselors that

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I know, either they are overworked or they are really overworked.

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So how do you get time to read Wall Street Journal?

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So I think that's where more than anything else, the time management comes into play.

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I've been lucky enough because I've worked across so many jurisdictions because our focus

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in Asia and Middle East is fairly limited in that sense, but more North America and

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Europe sort of set in the way we make investment.

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I have a little bit of an, and I think everybody does have a little bit out there, two to three

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hours of free time somewhere in the middle of the day.

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I get that time between two to five PM in India time.

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So I just end up cutting off all my browsers and emails and everything and all keeping

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my phone aside for those two to three hours.

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I have a calendar block for every day for those two to three hours, we just go and read

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because that's the only way we're going to be able to do it.

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If you're in a more traditional setup where you are sort of at your desk in the office

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all the time, like I work remotely when I'm in India and I work like from the office when

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I'm in Malaysia or Singapore, but if you're in a more typical sort of setup with lack

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of a better word interference, I would think a lot of Indians are guilty of doing this

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in that we don't use the calendar that we have in our software very optimally.

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And I've seen people respect calendars in India, but because it's never used optimally,

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people just abuse it.

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And so if you really set off time and block off time to do these things, I think it's

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possible to do.

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Yes, it does take an extra an hour, two hours of work, but at the end of the day, that two

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hours over a couple of days just compounds over time, right, it's just a compounding

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effect much like anything else.

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So I think that's the only way to stay updated.

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I don't think there's a good substitute, the substitute is go on chat, GPT, type a few

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things and you'll get your answer.

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I don't know how reliable that is going to be in the long run.

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Great advice there.

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And you know, Neera, one of the things that attracted or influenced our decision to invite

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you on the podcast is that you had a slightly different background before becoming a lawyer.

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So do you think that kind of influenced how you look at law or do you run into people

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after meeting who you believe, right, guys, they think about the way the law should work

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is completely different from me or legal education makes everyone think like a single unit.

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What are your thoughts on this?

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Yeah, no, no, so I absolutely agree that, you know, like having come from a little bit

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of an eco finance background.

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And I want to say this, you know, with a little bit of pride in that sense that it did give

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me an edge over my contemporaries in the sense of how I think because a lot of lawyers I

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have seen are a little, I would think, conservative in the way they approach things and the interpretation

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always take in the basis of what the black letter law is.

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Only once you get a certain degree of experience, you're able to take those aggressive calls

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because you've seen enough at that point, right?

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The pragmatic approach where we say is missing, I would think, for the first five years of

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most lawyers careers and this is what I'm saying globally, not just India.

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So in that sense, when I started looking at deals and because I was looking at deals from

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a commercial sense and a legal sense, I could actually make that argument in my head before

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a client could tell me that this deal is economically or commercially critical for me, you need

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to make it work.

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I would already be doing things to make it work.

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So in that sense, yes, I think like coming from a little bit of a different background,

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which does, yes, roll on their education by a couple of years can become helpful because

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it shortens your career path by I would think a few years.

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Honestly speaking, I don't think I would be able to become a GC if I had not done my

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ecofinance because it gave me that sort of edge when I spoke to the partner in my interview

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and I could present that look, I'm thinking of things in a multifaceted way than just

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a unilaterally legal way, which only comes with experience.

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If you haven't had education in that background, it's only going to come with experience.

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People don't understand nuances of deals overnight.

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And this is obviously the problem of our law firms are also.

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The first two to three to four years of your of your job, you're just unfortunately doing

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diligence.

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You're never really like sent to do contracts.

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You don't know how to negotiate.

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You've never spoken to a client in your life.

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So how do you understand nuances?

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How do you understand commercial?

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You're never going to do it.

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I was lucky enough that from my time at Zero Virgin and Partners to my time at BLC, my

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seniors had confidence enough in me to throw me in front of the clients.

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I would really think from my second week.

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You definitely had amazing seniors there then.

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Yeah.

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And obviously the size of the firm also matter.

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Right.

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And me, it was a conscious decision to work with those firms because of their size, because

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I knew I would get the exposure, because I knew where I wanted to go at the end of the

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day.

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Right.

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I'm guessing that you're a firm believer that young lawyers should always start with

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small law firms rather than the big ones.

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I mean, see, there's never going to be enough small law firms to accommodate the number

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of lawyers.

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Right.

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I think it needs to be what your goal is.

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And I'm a firm believer of the fact that, yes, goals do change over time, but you need

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to have an underlying goal when you get into something.

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For me, the goal was to have some sort of balance in my life and at the same time be

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extremely good at what I'm doing.

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I never had aspirations, honestly speaking, like never to become a partner or anything

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like that in a law firm.

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I knew I'm not cut out for that.

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I know it's too much work and I don't think like I'm that good at business development

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to get those kind of plans.

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To put it very candidly, there was not something that I ever aspired from the start.

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So that's why, like for me, if partnership was not something that was after for me, it

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didn't really matter too much beyond the point where I, so that's why I will work at a place

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where I'm able to learn the most.

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And GMP, absolutely, I learned a lot under Sameer and Vishnul, like still in touch with

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them.

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In fact, met them out in Mumbai last time and you know, it was great.

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My stint at Bombay Law Chambers was, I don't know if you've spoken to Karan or something

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or not, one of the best people to possibly work with at his level is I knew to know like

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how deals are done and not necessarily why a deal should and cannot be done.

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Yes, I'd come with it, but you'd actually learn business.

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And I think that the other day, that's what's important.

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That's also important.

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So again, I asked the controversial question in a corporate council, what do you think

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is more important, the law or the business?

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I think you need to be able to balance both, right?

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Because if you just look at business, right, you will be as blindsided as many other people

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in the field, right?

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Many other people on the investment side of things or in the business side of things,

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right?

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Where it will always be like for a lack of a better word, I'll say sales, sales, sales,

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sales, right?

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That's what matters.

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But you need to be grounded in the fact that if something looks too good to be true in

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terms of a deal, it most likely is like there is some problem, right?

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So you need to dig a little bit deeper.

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And without naming people, like I've had people come and tell me that you have like the issues

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you bring up.

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I sometimes feel like punching you in the face because we can't do that.

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But my answer to that is it's my job.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Right?

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But, but if I was only looking at business, I would possibly not see those.

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And at the end of the day, if tomorrow something does go wrong, nobody's going to go after

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the business guys.

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They're going to go after legal.

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What will you do?

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Exactly.

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It's his job to get the close, but it's your job to ensure that it's closed correctly.

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Right.

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But if you just look at the law, then you'll be as good as an external counsel.

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I mean, if you're only looking at the law, right?

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Then everybody's going to look at you as the person who's always creating problems.

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Right.

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So it has to be a very fine line.

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And I think more than understanding business, a role of the corporate counsel becomes, again,

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for a lack of a better phrase, client management.

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I'm saying clients because that's how it is.

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It's not client management.

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Senior management or partner management, or what do you want to call it?

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We effectively have to manage people at the end of the day, and how you put it also is

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critical.

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Right?

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You can't be like, no, and be arrogant about it because you feel that you have some power

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you don't need to put it across like that.

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It can't be like that.

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You have to be a little bit soft-handed in your approach and try to explain things.

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It's not like the business people are not willing to listen to you.

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It's just that it needs to be put correctly.

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Great advice there.

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And you know, as we're running out of time, I'll ask just one last question.

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Right?

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Sure, sure.

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My question is that, you know, as a lawyer, you're working in many jurisdictions.

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Any special insights that you noticed, like, you know, somebody who aspired to be a corporate

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counsel should know.

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In terms of exposure to jurisdictions or?

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Right, yeah.

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Because you have exposure to a lot of jurisdictions in your work.

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So for young lawyers who, you know, aspire to be like you, any special tips and tricks

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about the learnings that you have learned through, you know, your travel?

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Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.

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I think the biggest one would be appreciate India, I would say.

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I mean, I don't want to say this, I don't like and sound some sort of patriot or something

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like, you know, but it's not the point.

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But I think we under appreciate our country at a lot of points because now having dealt

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with Europe, you won't believe the kind of stuff or how difficult it is to do business

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in that region.

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It's disgustingly tough.

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Like, in fact, we're thinking about having a fundamental where we're saying we're not

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going to invest in certain European countries.

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Okay, but we don't have that for India.

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Because it's just stupid.

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The laws are like completely draconian over there.

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For real?

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Like the education that you get in India is more than enough for you to equip you to deal

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with, I would think, 70% of the world.

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Pay special attention to classes that you do.

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I've done the three-year LLB, so I would think the second or third year of your five-year

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program, pay attention to those classes, right?

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Because those are the ones that teach you interpretation, those are the ones that teach

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you jurisprudence, those are the ones that teach you contracts, which is jurisdiction

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agnostic, right?

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You're able to then pick up on those things and build on that.

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Continue reading, I would think.

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And after you know a couple of jurisdictions, like I worked in the UK, I studied in India,

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I worked in India, while I was studying in India, I went to Australia to do an internship.

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Now I am sort of working in a situation where I'm dealing with so many jurisdictions.

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After a point, I realized it's all the same, right?

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It's all the same.

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Like contract remains contract, no matter what you do, but indemnity will remain in

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India, no matter what you do.

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So as long as your fundamentals are strong, you're going to be able to conquer any jurisdiction

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you want.

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Yes, you may not be able to practice there, get a job in a law firm there, maybe, right?

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But you're equipped enough and knowledgeable enough to be able to at least hold a conversation.

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Like today, I can easily hold a conversation with a lawyer from the US, I don't have to

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pass the bar in New York and California to do that, but to prove myself, right?

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It's just about being interested, learning, and you know, getting the fundamentals strong.

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If your fundamentals are strong, there's nothing and nobody in the world that can shake

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you.

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Right.

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Wow.

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Great insights there.

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So as far as my understanding goes, you are in Singapore right now.

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I'm in Malaysia right now, because we have a small set, I'm in Malaysia because Malaysia

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and Singapore are the same time zone, that's why I said it.

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So I'm in Malaysia right now, I actually go to Singapore on Tuesday, bought a couple

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of conferences, then I'm back in Malaysia, and then I go back to India.

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So what's the best place to visit in Malaysia, according to you?

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Depends what you want to do.

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If you like Asian food, I would think like in Taifang, is a great restaurant to go to,

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I think it's amazing.

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Another great place to go to in Malaysia, I mean, Langkawi is great, actually, like,

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it's pretty like it's a pretty underrated beach spot, Malacca, again, is a great place

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to go to in Malaysia, like, it's like a little bigger version of Pondicherry in a way, if

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I was to draw a comparison to India.

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But yeah, like these are the few places like, you know, you can definitely visit, and yeah,

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we have typical Petronas stars and everything that you want to see, the tourist jar, but

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nothing great over there.

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But yeah, like Malaysia is pretty cool, the food is phenomenal here.

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So I always wanted to visit Malaysia, haven't happened so far, but thanks for the tips and

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thanks for coming on the podcast, even though you're traveling, have a safe journey to

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Singapore.

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Thanks a lot for your time.

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Thanks, Avinash.

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Thanks for having me.

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It was completely our pleasure.

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Take care.

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Take care.

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Bye bye.

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Good night.

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And that's a wrap on the part two of our conversation with Nirav Bhakshi.

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We hope you enjoyed diving deeper into the world of blockchain, venture capital and log

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with our esteemed guests.

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Nirav's insight have truly expanded my understanding of ever evolving legal landscape around crypto.

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I can't wait to see what groundbreaking ventures he embarks on next.

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And to all of our listeners, thank you for joining us on this enlightening journey.

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Subscribe to our channel for more thought provoking discussions like this.

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Until next time, keep exploring, keep learning and keep discussing