Podcast with Chetan Sikarwar, FOSS Compliance Legal Counsel, Bosch. (Part-1)

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Hey guys, today we have an exceptionally talented guest with us.

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His name is Mr. Chetan Sikarwar.

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He is currently serving as the FOSS Compliance Legal Counsel at Bosch.

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Chetan brings a wealth of knowledge and experience, having worked extensively in intellectual

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property law, corporate law and software licensing.

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So without any further ado, let's start this episode.

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So Chetan, thanks a lot for joining us on this amazing episode of LexDiscuss Podcast.

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Thank you.

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Happy to be here.

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Trust me, the pleasure is all mine.

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So for some of our listeners who don't know anything about you, would you care to give

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a brief introduction of yourself?

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I am an engineer first who turned to become a lawyer specializing in the IP.

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I completed my engineering in 2012.

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The initial idea to go in engineering is to join Indian Army, Indian Defense Services

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to be precise.

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And luckily in 2013, I also cleared the SSB, Service Selection Board interview.

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But due to some medical issues, I could not join them.

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For a couple of years, I worked in some of the startups in my locality and also prepared

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for some government exams, as everyone does nowadays.

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Then in 2018, I got the opportunity to join IIT Kharagpur for my law.

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So there I joined in 2018 and then three years I pursued my law.

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And then since then, I'm working with Bosch as Open Source Compliance Officer or Free

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and Open Source Compliance Officer, which is also known as FOSS.

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Wow.

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That's a great story.

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So what instigated that idea?

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What inspired you to pursue law?

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Because a lot of engineers, if they are not too happy with their career, they go the MBA

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route.

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Why?

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During my preparation for the government services, I happened to read about the Indian polity.

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So from there, my interest developed in the Constitution of India.

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When I start reading the Constitution, I realized, OK, I love this subject.

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I love to argue about this subject.

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So why not?

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Let's make this as a career.

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Fortunately or unfortunately, I got to know that the IIT Kharagpur at that point of time,

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so they have a college known as Rajiv Gandhi School of Intellectual Property Law.

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So they provide you a three year LLB course specialized in the intellectual property rights.

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And that course is only available for engineers and master in science students.

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So I thought, OK, fine.

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This is something which looks promising.

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I can also utilize my engineering knowledge, which I gained in the last four years.

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And I can also gain some legal knowledge.

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Interest in the Constitutional law, interest in the argument and all, I think that is something

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which pushed me toward pursuing law rather than going for the MBA or M.Tech.

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What was your experience, if you compare your experience in IIT Kharagpur, vis-a-vis, in

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your B.Tech degree?

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In B.Tech degree, I was very young.

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I would say I was not mature enough to have any experience.

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Apart from that, if I can recall my engineering days, during that time, I was like in full

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mode of being in an army office or a defense professional.

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I always wore the college uniform throughout my four year.

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We have the ceremony where in final year the student, they signed their each other's shirt.

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So they said, sometime do not wear your office or college uniform.

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So my experience in engineering college was not very vibrant.

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When I compare to my law college experience, it is very vibrant.

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We had a very good faculty, especially the Constitutional teacher, Professor Uday Shankar

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and copyrighted professor, called track law professor.

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So we used to have a lot of argument among ourselves.

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And then my friends with whom I completed my college, they were also very argumentative.

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So we often have different opinion on one particular matter.

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Rather, I would say that if I have some opinion, they will definitely oppose me for this.

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So yes, the experience was absolutely fantastic from the learning wise.

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Apart from that, if I talk about the culture and the experience in different sense, which

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generally student worries about, IIT Kharagpur is absolutely fantastic.

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One of the best institute, I must say.

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And I'm not saying because I'm the alum of the institute.

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When you go there, you will experience the environment, climate, everything.

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So best decision I would say of my life is to join the IIT Kharagpur for my law college.

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I don't have word to explain my experience there.

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I'm happy to hear that.

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But you know, one of the bonds of IIT Kharagpur, more precisely Rajiv Gandhi's pool of intellectual

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property rights, is that, you know, it kind of forces you to specialize in IP, right?

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What are your thoughts on this?

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So as I was mentioning, you do get an advantage that when you complete your education from

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a college which is well known in the industry for intellectual property rights.

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So as a student, you have advantage.

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But there are a number of students from our college, there are a number of alum in my

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college who has not opted the IP route, rather they have gone to the general law or the criminal

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law as well.

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So on the advantage part, I would say yes.

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But then again, if you have interest in something else, nobody's stopping you.

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And there are a lot of people who are from the college and working in the different area

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of law as well.

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Very wise words there.

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So would you suggest someone was thinking of pursuing three year LLB, right?

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To go to IIT Kharagpur versus established brands like CLU or sorry, Campus Law Center

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or BHC?

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That depends on the interest of the person, like if you are passionate about litigation,

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I would say don't go for the Rajiv Gandhi's pool of intellectual property law because

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the college is situated in Kharagpur, Medinapur district and court visits are usually not

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possible there.

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But if you want to go for a litigation, choose something which is more toward a main city

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where a lot of colleges are, sorry, courts are there where you can take part in the litigation

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or the part of court proceeding and all.

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Apart from if you have some technological background and you love technology, you are

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interested in knowing how they function.

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Then I would say go for Rajiv Gandhi's school of intellectual property law because there

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you can serve both things, your passion toward love as well as your love toward engineering

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and technology.

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So that totally depends on the interest of an individual, I would say.

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Wow, no, great insights there.

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And now you brought in the topic of internships there and that's really interesting because

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as a law student, because I did five year law college, it was really surprising to me

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as to why people pursuing other courses are not doing as much internships.

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As a law student.

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So from your profile, we saw that, you know, I think you did one mandatory internship that

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is mandatory in the second year, right?

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And then you did three to four internships while you were pursuing the LLB course.

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So how does this change happen?

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We were discussing with one of our law professor.

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So he gave us the insight regarding this law profession.

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So what he said is that the law that you read in the class is absolutely different

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what is practiced in the real life.

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So if you want to be a lawyer who is successful or who has some bit of understanding of law,

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class will not do the justice to you.

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You should go and experience the law at work.

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My professor's word triggered something in me and so I decided to go for the internship.

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So my first internship was in Sessions Court, Agra, where I have seen the CRPC and IPC functioning

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in a real life.

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Then later on, after that internship, I realized, okay, electric creation is something which

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is not my capacity, I cannot practice in the court.

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So then I shifted my focus toward corporate law.

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I did my second internship with Desai and Devanji in Delhi, which working in the corporate

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world, especially in insolvency and bankruptcy and arbitration matters.

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I did two internships with Desai and Devanji, one internship with Ling Juris LLP.

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So most of my internship was with the corporate world.

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After having the idea, the competition in litigation is very cutthroat, plus there are

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a lot of things that you have to compromise with your principles and all.

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So I thought, okay, litigation is not something for me.

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I should focus my work, my interest toward corporate.

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And then finally, I'm working with Bosch.

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Not in a corporate, I would say, it's still an IP, but not in patrons.

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I'm working with copyright and contracts.

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We will talk about your current role, but one of the things that I wanted to ask was

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that I think you did an internship as a legal researcher for Ministry of Law and Justice.

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How did you know about this and how did you approach?

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This is something which is a perk of being an IIT tech.

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So one of our professors, he has this project from Ministry of Law and Justice, where he's

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supposed to investigate about the then recent amendment in the Commercial Courts Act.

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That is, I think Section 12A, where the mediation become mandatory for certain cases to be filed

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in the commercial court.

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I think it was December time, and at that time, my professor approached me that he has

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some project where some research is required, whether I'm interested to do that research

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or not.

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So I thought, okay, fine, it's a good opportunity to work with you.

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Of course, I'll do that.

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So that's how I came across that opportunity and I'm lucky that I can write it in my CV.

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That's nice.

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You got a chance to do a four-month internship with TVS Modagamvi.

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So how did that happen?

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Internship with TVS is a part of my mandatory internship, which we're supposed to do after

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two years of completion.

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TVS is a regular recruit in our college.

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So they come every year.

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They basically hire two to three people for internship.

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And then from there, they extend their PPO.

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So they came to the college for the internship purposes.

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I sat in their interview and somehow I cracked that.

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Just prior to that, I have zero IP internship.

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All of my internship were either in the general law or in the corporate law.

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I don't know what they saw in me and finally offered that internship to me.

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I know you're acting really humble there, but I'll let it slide.

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That's what I wanted to attend is a big issue in Rajiv Gandhi School of IP.

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In a lot of law colleges in India, that's not the case where attendance is not mandatory.

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So students are doing internships when their semester is going on and they're able to do

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three, four months internship every year.

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What are your thoughts?

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Which situation is better?

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Where college is really strict about attendance and you are only going to, you are able to

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do only one month internship versus colleges are not so strict and students are able to

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do longer internships.

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I believe hands-on experience is better, but I will not complain from what I'm learning

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is to be honest, because we really enjoyed our class sessions.

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I mean, they are very interesting.

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But then when you talk about practical knowledge, I would say internship do help.

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I mean, the thing that you can learn in one year of your internship or your job, you

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cannot learn that in five years of law college, to be honest, because there are a lot of tricks

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and techniques which are involved in order to deal with certain issues.

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So yes, internships are matter, I would say, but then classes are also important.

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There are a lot of things that you learn in classes, but a lot of practical knowledge

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in the internship.

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So I don't know, I don't have any clear idea on this.

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My personal opinion was I really enjoyed my college in Rajiv Gandhi, I enjoyed the classes.

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Even if we do not have this strict rule for the attendance, I still would have attended

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all my classes, because I really enjoyed the teaching of my professors.

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And I mean, it's not the teaching to be honest, it's just that often in these classes, we

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felt like that we are arguing counsel and the professor who is sitting in front of us

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is the opponent.

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And we are arguing with them to prove our case.

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And every time you lose.

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So that is something which was very interesting.

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And I believe that is, I don't know about the other college, but that was the best experience

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I had in Rajiv Gandhi.

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And I would not have changed it, even if the rule of mandatory attendance was not there.

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Thanks for sharing that story.

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Internships are quite important to learn the practical aspects.

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But then what surprises me that why other professional courses are not so hell bent

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on giving internships, and why legal education is such an outlier when it comes to internship.

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If you see CA, right, they have this mandatory internship, but this is like, you know, just

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a little bit.

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And I know a lot of people who somehow managed to skip that.

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But if you look at management courses or engineering courses, the all of these guys go and, you

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know, do a job which is very different from what they were taught in the college.

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But why they are not under such a pressure to do internships?

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My opinion would be very controversial here.

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I think is when we talk about law in general.

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So what you read is one aspect of it.

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And there is an equal amount of knowledge is there when you apply it, right.

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And you can learn something which is practical in nature when you do the application part.

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Now, when I compare with engineering, because I mean, when I was pursuing my engineering,

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the only thing that I have to do is the coding part, which I did in my final project.

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There is not much requirement for me to apply whatever I have learned in the practical way.

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So if I have to write a program, I will write it the same way, whether I'm in college or

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in working for some company or during my internship.

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But when it comes to the law, things is absolutely different.

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You encounter a client, he has absolutely different requirement than the previous client.

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So he has some other issue, the other one has a different issue, and number of laws

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are different.

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So you need to know where that particular law is, and then how to apply that law to

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that particular situation.

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And this is something which you can only understand and learn when you have a hands on experience.

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Whereas in other, the only thing that you need to understand is how to handle people,

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to be honest, or in engineering, I don't know like, what else is there.

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In other profession, like for MBA and all, it's just that how you handle the people and

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for that you are either good or you are not.

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So there is nothing must to learn there.

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So I think that is the one more required in law because there are a lot of practical learning

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is necessary.

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And you need to also learn some tricks and technique to apply whatever you have learned

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in the classes.

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Whereas in other profession, there is no such requirement.

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Whatever you have learned, you can either do that in your own class or with your...

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Thanks for sharing that.

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And how's the place like scene at IIT Kharagpur?

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In my batch, we were somewhere around 45, 46 people.

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Anyone who wanted the job from college were placed.

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They were placed in a decent company or law firm.

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People who were like not inclined toward working in the IP.

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So being honest here, Law College, Rajiv Rambi School of Intellectual Property Law, they

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do not support you if you are not interested to work in IP.

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But there are a lot of alum who work in that particular area, professors give you contact,

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you connect with them and they'll help you out.

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But the college in general does not help.

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So anyone who wanted the job from the college, they are placed, means the 100% placement

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in that area.

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And people who wanted to go for a litigation or wanted to work in non-IP firms, they are

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also registered with our seniors.

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So in that sense, I would say 100% placement was there.

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People may differ with the number, but then I see it in that particular fashion.

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Achieving 100% placement in legal profession is very easy because at the end of the day,

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every student that you have is if he or she doesn't get a job, is going to get a job in

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litigation.

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Sure.

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But if that person won't be paid for the next two to three, technically that person is placed.

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So 100% placement on report is very easy to achieve.

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But I wanted to understand what's the general scene at IIT Kharagpur because I know a lot

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of law colleges and law students where they really want, they are saying like, give us

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any job that we can.

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But the college is structured in a way and has that reputation in the market that they

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are not able to place everyone who is desirous of getting a job.

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So I can tell you till 2021, post-21 due to COVID and all situation, and even I am not

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updated much.

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So till my batch, in every batch, there are five to 10 people who decided initially that

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we are going for the litigation and we are going for the non-IP work.

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So apart from those people, if you take an average of 20 to 25 people who are sitting

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for the placement, most of them are placed.

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And majority of these 20 to 25 people, they already have an offer from the company where

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they have interned.

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So during my period, there are certain companies which are like regular.

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So TVS is regular.

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They always hire three or four people from our college.

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Bosch is one of the regular companies from there.

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Apart from that, there are a number of law firms which are regular.

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They often come and take four or five people on a regular basis.

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You genuinely want to get a job from the college.

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Opportunities at the end of the day, then again, you have to credit.

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In my personal experience, I've never seen a person who was sitting in the interview

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session or the going through that particular space and do not have any offer at the end.

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That was my experience.

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From my juniors, I get to know that the situation is a bit dire now.

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But then again, I'm sure our college must be working very hard in order to do justice

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with the students.

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This is the best a college can do, right?

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And as you said, I completely agree with your fact, the amazing work Rajiv Gandhi School

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of Intellectual Property work is doing when it comes to placement.

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But that's not a sole opinion, I would also say.

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This is an opinion I have heard from many people.

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Now coming to your current.

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So FOSS complies legal counsel, right?

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What does that mean?

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So let me give you a brief about FOSS initially.

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Usually when you develop a software, you download certain libraries from GitHub or some other

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open source from the internet, to be honest.

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Now when you download those libraries, those libraries are under certain licenses.

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Yeah, right.

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So those licenses could be an open source license, or those licenses could be a commercial

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one.

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Like for example, Microsoft's license, you download it file from Microsoft, it is a commercial

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license.

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Or you download the Linux kernel, which is under general public license.

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So open source, generally, if I like if I have to explain exactly what open source is,

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00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:52,360
open source is a community driven program, if you can put it that way, where engineers,

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they share their source code of the application that they have developed.

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And they have given to the people in general.

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And when they give it to people in general, they put certain conditions, certain restrictions

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in order to use that.

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So open source licenses are those restrictions, those limitations and those conditions that

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you have to force in in order to use that piece of code.

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My job as a force force basically stand for free and open source software.

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So my job as a force compliance legal officer is to look into the license text, and then

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assist the teams whether they can use the particular piece of code or not, if they can

315
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use it, how they can use it, what should be the way of interaction and what are the obligation

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they have to wholesale whether it has any negative impact on our company if we use that

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particular piece of code and so on and so forth.

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So any assistance they require in terms of legal and some bit of technical, I mean, I

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will not tell them you can write this function to use it, but how they can integrate that

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piece of code with our own proprietary application and other any other legal assistance related

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to these softwares.

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So that is my role in Mosh.

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Wow, great description there.

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00:22:16,620 --> 00:22:24,600
One of my good friends bought it in legal hot water because they were using free and

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open source software, but the legal team or they were just not aware of the fact.

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And so they didn't put in the right restriction notices and disclaimers at the right places

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and this, you know, but this is really important and something I feel young startups don't

328
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really take care of, right?

329
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What are your thoughts on this?

330
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This problem that you're trying to solve at Bosch, right?

331
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It's happening at other startups and established companies.

332
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So what are they doing?

333
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I'm not exactly sure what they are doing, but if you if you consider it, then I see

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00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,040
it's a very major legal issue, to be honest.

335
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So there are a number of cases which are there in the U.S. where companies are found noncompliant

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with the open source license and had to pay a hefty sum in order to settle the matter.

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00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,580
So there is one organization which is known as good.

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So they have a family of licenses which are general public licenses and the Linux kernel

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is also under one of their license.

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And then there is another organization which is the software firm SFLM is the I think is

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the correct name of them.

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So they what they usually do is they look for the companies who are in compliant or

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have not fulfilled the obligation of general public license.

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So if I can give you a brief idea exactly what general public license says is that if

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you are using their code or if you are using any code which is licensed under the general

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public license, then in such situation, you have to release the entire application under

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general public.

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You need to provide the source code to anyone who came across your application.

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And then you also need to provide the attribution to the author.

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People are often do not care about this much and they do not comply with it.

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So usually what happened in those cases is that companies have not released the source

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code which they are supposed to do because of using the GPL and that particular law firm

353
00:24:32,140 --> 00:24:37,380
filed a case in the in the circuit courts in United States of America and then they

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have to pay a hefty sum which is not disclosed.

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Of course, this is out of the court settlement.

356
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There are a number of cases, especially from 2007 to 2008 or 2009 and then later on.

357
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So it is one of the major issue and I believe for these startups, they need to pay much

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more attention to that because usually what happens is that initially when your brand

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is not too big, people don't care much.

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But once you reach to a particular level, at that point of time, it is very easy for

361
00:25:07,140 --> 00:25:11,580
a person who has a bit of knowledge about the open source and can look into your compliance

362
00:25:11,580 --> 00:25:18,420
sheet, figure out any issue or any problem in your code or take a hefty sum from you.

363
00:25:18,420 --> 00:25:24,460
If you're not complying with the open source license, it is a copyright infringement.

364
00:25:24,460 --> 00:25:29,100
So if it is a copyright infringement, it can be a criminal case or it can be a civil case

365
00:25:29,100 --> 00:25:36,660
where you can be prosecuted or you are asked to pay either fine or pay damages to the person

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whose software you have used.

367
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So yeah, it's a major issue and I think new startups need to pay attention to it.

368
00:25:45,940 --> 00:25:46,940
Absolutely.

369
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There's a famous phrase in IP litigation is that we don't sue until and unless the other

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party becomes successful.

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And the problem that happens is that, you know, that if you are a young startup trying

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to make it, they will not get a lot out of you by suing you.

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The biggest risk that you are taking is this kind of thing coming in at the time of raising

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funds, which is when the, you know, everything has happened and they're doing due diligence

375
00:26:18,780 --> 00:26:22,980
and they come across that you have received a notice of that time.

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00:26:22,980 --> 00:26:29,200
I have seen a lot of deals falling through because of this, because people who are investing

377
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,300
in you, they don't understand IP, right?

378
00:26:32,300 --> 00:26:39,700
They don't know whether because of this IP dispute, is this company I'm investing in

379
00:26:39,700 --> 00:26:43,980
is going to be worthless or is just going to be a minor issue, right?

380
00:26:43,980 --> 00:26:47,300
Which is quite often the case, but the investor doesn't know it.

381
00:26:47,300 --> 00:26:54,060
The best case scenario would be that they still invest in you, but use this as a leverage

382
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to bring down the value.

383
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:57,200
There is another side of as well.

384
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,460
You can also utilize open source as a strategic matter.

385
00:27:00,460 --> 00:27:04,380
So you see Google, so they develop transformers.

386
00:27:04,380 --> 00:27:10,020
Transformer is something on which the generative AI can, for our public who doesn't know about

387
00:27:10,020 --> 00:27:16,340
transformer and how important role transformers are playing these days, I'll explain whatever

388
00:27:16,340 --> 00:27:17,340
I know.

389
00:27:17,340 --> 00:27:23,940
So, so transformer is basically an architecture of neural network where they have a specific

390
00:27:23,940 --> 00:27:28,460
particular neuron, how they take a decision is determined, right?

391
00:27:28,460 --> 00:27:30,840
So prior to that, there was RNNs.

392
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So what they do is there is a looping method.

393
00:27:33,140 --> 00:27:38,260
So you put an input, they do some calculation and then they generate an output and then

394
00:27:38,260 --> 00:27:40,140
output is feeded to another network.

395
00:27:40,140 --> 00:27:43,460
Now in this particular, in transformers, basically what they have done is they have came up with

396
00:27:43,460 --> 00:27:49,360
the attention mechanism through which you reach to a more appropriate classification

397
00:27:49,360 --> 00:27:50,360
of that particular word.

398
00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:54,060
I mean, say if I go in detail, it becomes more technical and even I'm not sure whether

399
00:27:54,060 --> 00:27:56,020
I'll be able to explain that.

400
00:27:56,020 --> 00:28:03,180
So transformer, you can understand as a building block for chat GPT or any generative AI, which

401
00:28:03,180 --> 00:28:06,140
is like very famous right now.

402
00:28:06,140 --> 00:28:11,820
So in chat GPT, his transformers, yes, right.

403
00:28:11,820 --> 00:28:19,020
So without Google, a lot of people don't realize that chat GPT was not possible.

404
00:28:19,020 --> 00:28:20,020
Yes, absolutely.

405
00:28:20,780 --> 00:28:25,980
Even if I'm not wrong, even the TensorFlow is something which is developed by Google

406
00:28:25,980 --> 00:28:30,420
and provided to public under Apache license, Apache 2.0.

407
00:28:30,420 --> 00:28:32,180
Look at their business mind.

408
00:28:32,180 --> 00:28:37,500
Now Apache says that you can use that piece of code, but whatever patent you are generating,

409
00:28:37,500 --> 00:28:41,020
you cannot file an infringement case for that, right?

410
00:28:41,020 --> 00:28:46,700
So for example, I develop an application using TensorFlow and I created a product out of it

411
00:28:46,700 --> 00:28:48,420
and I filed for the patent.

412
00:28:48,460 --> 00:28:52,740
Now somebody else tomorrow use the same TensorFlow and develop something new.

413
00:28:52,740 --> 00:28:58,100
And now it is like in competition with my own app product.

414
00:28:58,100 --> 00:29:02,780
I cannot sue them because they are infringing my patent, because I've used TensorFlow.

415
00:29:02,780 --> 00:29:09,060
And the moment I file that patent infringement case against them, they are under corporate

416
00:29:09,060 --> 00:29:10,620
infringement because they're right.

417
00:29:10,620 --> 00:29:12,500
Whatever they have given under Apache is taken over.

418
00:29:12,500 --> 00:29:14,940
So you see the brilliance of their mind.

419
00:29:14,940 --> 00:29:17,220
Android is the perfect example.

420
00:29:17,220 --> 00:29:19,260
They put Android in the public domain.

421
00:29:19,260 --> 00:29:25,020
I think Android is under MIT or BSD, I'm not sure exactly.

422
00:29:25,020 --> 00:29:29,700
And now majority of the phone market is using Google dominance and they are enjoying the

423
00:29:29,700 --> 00:29:31,580
fruit of their work.

424
00:29:31,580 --> 00:29:35,420
Open source is of course at one end saves you.

425
00:29:35,420 --> 00:29:39,420
Also it gives you a lot of strategic advantage if you use it properly.

426
00:29:39,420 --> 00:29:44,060
Now I can understand why you are saying that, you know, open source software can be used

427
00:29:44,100 --> 00:29:47,420
as a strategic or competitive advantage.

428
00:29:47,420 --> 00:29:49,140
Absolutely. Absolutely.

429
00:29:49,140 --> 00:29:51,660
Right. Great insights there.

430
00:29:51,660 --> 00:29:58,020
Over the course of my professional career, I meet a lot of legal professionals in law

431
00:29:58,020 --> 00:29:59,580
firms and in the corporate department.

432
00:29:59,580 --> 00:30:05,580
But I rarely see someone with this title, false compliance legal counsel.

433
00:30:05,580 --> 00:30:08,300
So my question is what is happening?

434
00:30:08,300 --> 00:30:13,780
Are the companies making this legal function just part of the general corporate legal

435
00:30:13,780 --> 00:30:20,460
department or how many false legal compliance counsels with this designation in your opinion

436
00:30:20,460 --> 00:30:21,940
exist in India?

437
00:30:21,940 --> 00:30:25,460
See giving number would not be possible.

438
00:30:25,460 --> 00:30:29,500
But I know a couple of people who are in my circle and who are working on almost the same

439
00:30:29,500 --> 00:30:34,260
work and they're working in a decent companies like well-known companies.

440
00:30:34,260 --> 00:30:38,580
So companies are especially the one who are a bigger name.

441
00:30:38,580 --> 00:30:44,580
They are very vigilant about this particular issue and they make sure that whatever they

442
00:30:44,580 --> 00:30:50,500
are doing is compliant with all the general laws along with the open source as well.

443
00:30:50,500 --> 00:30:55,060
But the smaller companies, they are making this legal function part of the general property

444
00:30:55,060 --> 00:30:57,260
department.

445
00:30:57,260 --> 00:30:59,000
Maybe or maybe they are not concerned about it.

446
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:04,260
So I can put it in this way, considering my experience with the people I'm working with,

447
00:31:05,100 --> 00:31:11,140
companies, they are very vigilant about the open source as well as well as the IP, whereas

448
00:31:11,140 --> 00:31:17,740
the Indian companies, they are not so and Indian companies, I mean, the new startups,

449
00:31:17,740 --> 00:31:22,980
I mean, not the other bigger names which are like working in a multiple domains.

450
00:31:22,980 --> 00:31:28,180
The startups and all they are like, it would be harsh for me to put it, they are still

451
00:31:28,180 --> 00:31:36,420
in the survival mode rather than focusing on something which is being compliant with

452
00:31:36,420 --> 00:31:40,500
open source IP rules.

453
00:31:40,500 --> 00:31:46,980
That's not untrue, to be honest, and I completely agree with your assessment.

454
00:31:46,980 --> 00:31:51,660
So my next question is, how does these small companies make sure that they're not breaking

455
00:31:51,660 --> 00:31:57,620
the open source licenses, especially when they have a very small legal department and

456
00:31:57,660 --> 00:32:02,620
in a lot of them, they don't even have a legal department, they have an outsourced external

457
00:32:02,620 --> 00:32:03,940
council, right?

458
00:32:03,940 --> 00:32:08,460
So how can a lawyer who doesn't even understand technology, right?

459
00:32:08,460 --> 00:32:10,260
That's what those technologies are.

460
00:32:10,260 --> 00:32:14,900
And there are technical people who are, you know, using these open source libraries.

461
00:32:14,900 --> 00:32:20,140
How does they coordinate to make sure that smaller companies are not breaching open source

462
00:32:20,140 --> 00:32:21,620
licenses?

463
00:32:21,620 --> 00:32:27,580
So one thing what they can do is that there are a number of applications which are available

464
00:32:27,580 --> 00:32:28,580
nowadays.

465
00:32:28,580 --> 00:32:32,380
Black Duck is one, FOSS Cleanse is one, Fossology is one.

466
00:32:32,380 --> 00:32:37,180
So what these applications do is you put your source code in them, they scan the entire

467
00:32:37,180 --> 00:32:43,140
source code and give you a report that these are the open source component we found and

468
00:32:43,140 --> 00:32:45,860
these components are licensed under so-and-so thing.

469
00:32:45,860 --> 00:32:51,700
So what they can do minimum, at least they should do is they should generate that report,

470
00:32:51,700 --> 00:32:55,780
look into that report and see whether that report contain anything which is a strong

471
00:32:55,780 --> 00:33:01,100
copyleft license or like that would be a more technical term, they just should look

472
00:33:01,100 --> 00:33:06,660
into that, whether that list of license contain anything which put implication onto their

473
00:33:06,660 --> 00:33:07,660
own code.

474
00:33:07,660 --> 00:33:08,660
Okay.

475
00:33:08,660 --> 00:33:15,540
Apart from that, if you are using source code from internet, try to give attribution to

476
00:33:15,540 --> 00:33:20,020
that means whosoever the author is, just give their copyright information.

477
00:33:20,020 --> 00:33:23,620
If you can find the license information, just try to provide that license information as

478
00:33:24,460 --> 00:33:28,700
well in your documentation or in your webpage, just mention that this is the product, this

479
00:33:28,700 --> 00:33:33,700
product contain, this is the software detail for the product, we are using so-and-so component,

480
00:33:33,700 --> 00:33:36,380
these are the author name and this is the copyright.

481
00:33:36,380 --> 00:33:41,020
And apart from that, you can also, if you can figure out, usually if you are looking

482
00:33:41,020 --> 00:33:46,660
into let's say, if I'm downloading something from GitHub, GitHub is one of the major repositories.

483
00:33:46,660 --> 00:33:51,260
So in GitHub, you find the license information for each and every component most of the time.

484
00:33:51,900 --> 00:33:57,900
Either you can find it in the license file or you can find it in the readme file and

485
00:33:57,900 --> 00:33:58,900
so on and so forth.

486
00:33:58,900 --> 00:34:03,180
So pass that information along with your product and just make sure that there is no strong

487
00:34:03,180 --> 00:34:06,420
copy left licenses or weak copy left licenses.

488
00:34:06,420 --> 00:34:07,420
Right.

489
00:34:07,420 --> 00:34:08,420
Okay.

490
00:34:08,420 --> 00:34:11,260
So I have two follow-up questions.

491
00:34:11,260 --> 00:34:16,820
What do you mean by, so they have downloaded the software from GitHub which everybody is

492
00:34:16,820 --> 00:34:17,820
doing.

493
00:34:17,820 --> 00:34:18,820
Yes.

494
00:34:18,820 --> 00:34:19,820
Right.

495
00:34:20,380 --> 00:34:21,380
Okay.

496
00:34:21,380 --> 00:34:22,380
This is GNLU 3.2.

497
00:34:22,380 --> 00:34:26,900
For a technical person, he doesn't understand what does that.

498
00:34:26,900 --> 00:34:28,900
What that person is supposed to do?

499
00:34:28,900 --> 00:34:33,980
The answer would be very technical in this query.

500
00:34:33,980 --> 00:34:38,500
So when we talk about the false licenses, they can be classified into three broader

501
00:34:38,500 --> 00:34:39,620
category.

502
00:34:39,620 --> 00:34:46,100
So what is permissive in nature where the author of the code has given you all the necessary

503
00:34:46,100 --> 00:34:50,300
rights which you require in order to use that particular application means you can

504
00:34:50,300 --> 00:34:54,660
use it, you can run it, you can distribute it, you can modify it and do whatever.

505
00:34:54,660 --> 00:34:58,900
The only thing that you need to do is provide attribution means give the copyright information

506
00:34:58,900 --> 00:35:03,780
of the author as well as you need to provide the license text under which you've received.

507
00:35:03,780 --> 00:35:07,940
So MIT, BSD, your sort of an Apache.

508
00:35:07,940 --> 00:35:11,580
So these are the licenses which are permissive in nature because they give you a lot of permissions

509
00:35:11,580 --> 00:35:12,580
in order to do this.

510
00:35:13,340 --> 00:35:17,460
Now there is a secondary category which is known as weak copyleft licenses.

511
00:35:17,460 --> 00:35:22,380
Now what these licenses says is that you have all the permission to do whatever you require

512
00:35:22,380 --> 00:35:24,580
in order to function.

513
00:35:24,580 --> 00:35:29,700
But just remember one thing that the product of this open source component in your own

514
00:35:29,700 --> 00:35:34,500
proprietary application will go under two separate licenses means your proprietary application

515
00:35:34,500 --> 00:35:38,140
go under the term of your choice, but this open source will always remain under open

516
00:35:38,140 --> 00:35:39,140
source license.

517
00:35:39,140 --> 00:35:42,820
In this case again what you're required to do is you need to provide copyright information,

518
00:35:42,820 --> 00:35:46,780
you need to provide license text and in certain cases you need to provide source code for

519
00:35:46,780 --> 00:35:51,460
the open source component not your own, not whatever you have developed.

520
00:35:51,460 --> 00:35:55,980
Then comes the third category of license which is strong copyleft licenses.

521
00:35:55,980 --> 00:36:01,180
Now these are the licenses which says if you're using my code in order to develop your application

522
00:36:01,180 --> 00:36:06,580
whatever the resultant is will go under the same license means under which you receive

523
00:36:06,580 --> 00:36:07,580
the open source.

524
00:36:07,580 --> 00:36:15,460
So for example general public license version 1 version 2 version 3 or agpl license version

525
00:36:15,460 --> 00:36:19,680
2 version 3 they are strong copyleft licenses.

526
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:24,740
So they say if you are using my code in your application you have to release the entire

527
00:36:24,740 --> 00:36:28,020
application under my license.

528
00:36:28,020 --> 00:36:34,740
So whenever you encounter licenses you need to firstly avoid that is the first suggestion

529
00:36:34,740 --> 00:36:35,920
I would give you.

530
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:40,200
If you are not able to avoid and it becomes absolutely mandatory for you then in that

531
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,120
case there are certain exemptions.

532
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,840
Exemption as in so whenever we talk about the softwares so there are certain things

533
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:52,360
which is known as integration like how your application is interacting with the open source

534
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:53,500
component.

535
00:36:53,500 --> 00:36:59,080
So GPL says that if your application and this open source works in a separate program right

536
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:04,160
there is no intimate communication between both of them, there is no intimate exchange

537
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:09,120
of information between both these applications then in such situation you can run and you

538
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:14,660
can distribute your application under your term and condition my code will go under my

539
00:37:14,660 --> 00:37:16,540
term and condition.

540
00:37:16,540 --> 00:37:19,880
So whenever you encounter the strong copyleft license firstly just make sure that you are

541
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:20,880
not using them.

542
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:26,360
Secondly if it becomes absolutely necessary for you to use that piece of code just try

543
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:31,240
to make sure that piece of code runs in a separate way from your own application.

544
00:37:31,240 --> 00:37:41,760
Now how you can achieve it for that you need to hire a person who is a lot let you go

545
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:47,480
this is general people who are startup entrepreneurs they are strapped with cash and as you said

546
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:53,400
in the survival mode right and majority of them are building web apps right they start

547
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:58,200
with a website and they build a web app then they think about going you know building apps

548
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,840
in the android or the apple ecosystem right.

549
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,320
So they have downloaded this software they have bought in the readmooly license they

550
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:09,680
read it right where they are supposed to put this information on their web where they should

551
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,800
put this information depend on the license itself okay majority of license says that

552
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:18,760
you're supposed to distribute that information along with the product okay or in the user

553
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:23,600
manual whatever the manual you have or in the advertisement whatever wherever you are

554
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:25,360
doing the advertisement part.

555
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:31,040
One of the most safest way to do this is that you have your own website where you have your

556
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:38,040
product either listed or available for download there you have a page where you get the detail

557
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:43,560
of the product itself for example I develop an application where you can ask questions

558
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:48,040
so on that particular website I give you the description okay this is the product these

559
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:51,640
are the description these are the things that you can do and in that particular page you

560
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:57,520
can give the all this information software information that this application is developed

561
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:01,680
which are licensed these are the respective author for so and so and the license for these

562
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:06,880
like text license text for these licenses can be referred to so and so.

563
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:16,120
Well said I'm actually planning to do a series on this especially after one of my close friends

564
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:21,120
got into hot water I've been thinking on this issue and that was one of the reasons I approached

565
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:26,720
you because my knowledge on this topic is a little limited okay.

566
00:39:26,720 --> 00:39:34,600
So now this is the rapid fire round so my first question is what's the funniest thing

567
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,140
you have ever heard in your legal career?

568
00:39:37,140 --> 00:39:42,920
This is not something which I personally experienced but over at YouTube I heard an experience

569
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:48,960
with Justice Chandrajit mentioned so he usually narrates this story that one of the senior

570
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:56,000
counsel sent his junior to ask for a time so he entered in the court and asked Chief

571
00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:00,520
Justice directly sir what's the time but Chief Justice asked okay why are you asking me there

572
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:06,440
is a clock there so he said my superior asked me to come here and ask time from you so I

573
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:13,720
think that was the I mean I didn't do justice with the joke but I think that was the funniest

574
00:40:13,720 --> 00:40:17,040
thing I ever heard.

575
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:20,920
I mean there was a title called Joke Butcher you would definitely.

576
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:26,120
Absolutely in personal life I'm more funnier than this I can vouch for this.

577
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,120
Hard to believe but I liked it.

578
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:35,120
One of the funniest thing I have ever heard came from an alum from your college.

579
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:43,600
So I was interning with him in Delhi and he shared an experience so he had a classmate

580
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:49,840
who was a doctor right because a lot of people were like you just don't need B.Tech if you

581
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:55,160
have a technical degree even if you have an MBBS you can pursue law from IIT Kharagpur

582
00:40:55,160 --> 00:41:01,160
so he said that he is a doctor and if he goes to practice he will tell the judge to take

583
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,880
his medicine as well.

584
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:08,640
There are a couple of things which are like very funny but then again they are not specific

585
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:09,640
related to law.

586
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,640
It doesn't matter please share.

587
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:19,680
Those are the conversations with the professor specifically and with the confined of privacy.

588
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:20,680
Absolutely.

589
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,680
We will talk about that off the record.

590
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:30,880
The next question is if you could be any superhero which one you would be and what would be your

591
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:32,920
legal superpower?

592
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:38,680
My legal superpower would be knowing each and every statute by heart whether procedural

593
00:41:38,720 --> 00:41:40,720
or substantive.

594
00:41:40,720 --> 00:41:43,720
If you ask me to be a superhero I would say Captain America.

595
00:41:43,720 --> 00:41:52,720
I really admire the discipline that man has, the moral compass he has.

596
00:41:52,720 --> 00:41:53,720
So Captain America.

597
00:41:53,720 --> 00:41:56,720
You essentially want to be the guy from suits right?

598
00:41:56,720 --> 00:41:58,720
Harvey Spector you mean to say.

599
00:41:58,720 --> 00:42:00,720
Harvey Spector hires another guy.

600
00:42:00,720 --> 00:42:03,720
He is not a lawyer.

601
00:42:03,720 --> 00:42:06,720
So I miss like you really wanted to be in the army.

602
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,760
I think army lost a great candidate by not selecting.

603
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:11,760
No I don't agree with this.

604
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:13,760
Army selects the best.

605
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:18,760
So this is one of the saying in the SSB area.

606
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,760
They say that we select the sharpest mind and the fittest body.

607
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:27,760
So if I am not there that means I am not either fit or the sharpest.

608
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:34,760
Did you try a career option because this was suggested to me by my dad that army hires

609
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:36,800
a lot of lawyers as well.

610
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:38,800
Jag entries.

611
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:44,800
The issue with my case is even if I go for a Jag entry I have to go through the SSB process.

612
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:46,800
SSB process is more or less similar.

613
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:51,800
If you want to be a commissioned officer in the Indian army you have to follow a process

614
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:55,800
or either means whether the Coast Guard or Air Force or Navy.

615
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:57,800
So there is a streamlined process.

616
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:03,800
Whenever the medical comes the issue that I have is something which is problematic.

617
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,840
I mean I cannot get through that door with that particular condition.

618
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:10,840
I have congenital cataract in both of my eyes.

619
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:15,840
What army or the defense in general the rule they have is anything which is congenital

620
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:24,840
in nature and can have or severe in nature to be honest they will not take you.

621
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:30,840
So with me the issue is I have this cloud formation on both of my eyes right at the

622
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:32,840
center of the side.

623
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:36,880
There was another person who was suffering with more or less the same issue but then

624
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:42,880
the cloud formation in his eyes was on a different plane than right at that center.

625
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:44,880
He got through.

626
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,880
The problem was very severe and that's why I could not join.

627
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:51,880
How did that make you feel when you first came to know about this?

628
00:43:51,880 --> 00:44:00,880
To be honest if I put it in a more poetic manner we usually heard a dialogue in Hindi

629
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,920
that when the first love is over how does it feel?

630
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:05,920
So for me it was that same experience.

631
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:10,920
I mean I cannot explain to you how much it meant to me to go to the army.

632
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:18,920
I think it was the first year of my engineering when I decided to join the armed force.

633
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,920
And that was something which I genuinely wanted from my life.

634
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:26,920
I mean I never loved anything more than being in that uniform.

635
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:31,960
And for four or five years consecutively I considered myself as a defense personnel.

636
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:33,960
I acted in the same manner.

637
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:39,960
Even if I imagine my future right after the college I see myself in the uniform.

638
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:45,960
And then all of a sudden when I came to know that the dream cannot be fulfilled

639
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:49,960
and because of something in which I have no control of.

640
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,960
It was like a life ending situation.

641
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,000
My personality changed from there itself.

642
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:01,000
Initially I was very more serious and a very calm person.

643
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:07,000
From that I turned to this very jovial person.

644
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,000
I mean always make jokes.

645
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,000
Do not take things very seriously and so on and so forth.

646
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:15,000
So I think that was a life changing experience for me.

647
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,000
I still feel very bad whenever I think about it.

648
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:21,000
I'm sorry to hear that.

649
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:22,000
It's okay.

650
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,040
Life is quite cruel for this podcast.

651
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:33,040
What advice would you give to someone who experiences a heartbreak just like you?

652
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:38,040
Here I would like to share a story that I learned in my last SSB.

653
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,040
So with me there was a person.

654
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:44,040
He participated in a number of recruitment drives.

655
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:48,040
Recruitment army usually conduct recruitment drives in every city

656
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:52,080
where you go run for some kilometers and do some physical activities

657
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:54,080
and then they recruit as a support.

658
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:57,080
At least four or five he must have been appeared into

659
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:02,080
and all those drives he was rejected due to certain issues.

660
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:03,080
Some problems.

661
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,080
I mean in certain case he was not physically fit.

662
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,080
In some case he has some medical issue and so on and so forth.

663
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:11,080
In that particular SSB where I met him

664
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:14,080
he wrote the CDS exam for the first time

665
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:17,080
appeared in the SSB for the first time in Allahabad

666
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:20,120
He cleared the medical in first time

667
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:23,120
and now he became the Lieutenant Indian Army.

668
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:26,120
So now consider this.

669
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:30,120
If he got succeeded in one of the recruitment drives

670
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:33,120
he would only remain as a sepai in Indian Army.

671
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:39,120
He never become the officer of Indian Army, gazetted post.

672
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:43,120
So he told me this thing when my medical was happening

673
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:45,120
and I was very sad

674
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,160
so he told me something

675
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:49,160
and he narrated this story to me and said

676
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:51,160
see if I look back

677
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:53,160
I can clearly tell you that whatever happens

678
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:55,160
happens for the good.

679
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,160
So that is something which I learned from it

680
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:01,160
although I feel bad but I strongly believe that

681
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:03,160
whatever happened has happened for good.

682
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:09,160
So this is my message to anyone who has gone through such a hardship

683
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:11,160
even if you look at back

684
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:13,160
and you see yourself today

685
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:16,200
you will see there was a situation

686
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,200
when you thought everything is gone

687
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:20,200
now still you are surviving

688
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:22,200
and it will be the same case.

689
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:24,200
Wise words there Chetan

690
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:26,200
Thanks a lot for coming on the podcast

691
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:28,200
and sharing your story

692
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,200
sharing your legal knowledge

693
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:32,200
it was really entertaining and knowledgeable

694
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:36,200
and one word I rarely use in my podcast

695
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:38,200
it was inspiring.

696
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,200
Thank you for giving me the opportunity

697
00:47:40,240 --> 00:47:43,240
Trust me you are meant for better things

698
00:47:43,240 --> 00:47:45,240
and you might not realize this right now

699
00:47:45,240 --> 00:47:47,240
but later on

700
00:47:47,240 --> 00:47:49,240
Thanks

701
00:47:49,240 --> 00:47:51,240
Sure

702
00:47:51,240 --> 00:47:53,240
As we wrap up this insightful episode

703
00:47:53,240 --> 00:47:55,240
of Let's Discuss Cafe

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00:47:55,240 --> 00:47:57,240
we want to extend

705
00:47:57,240 --> 00:47:59,240
our heartfelt thanks to Chetan

706
00:47:59,240 --> 00:48:01,240
Remember to follow him on LinkedIn

707
00:48:01,240 --> 00:48:03,240
to stay updated

708
00:48:03,240 --> 00:48:05,240
on his latest insights

709
00:48:05,240 --> 00:48:07,240
and adventures

710
00:48:07,240 --> 00:48:09,240
If you enjoyed this episode

711
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,280
please share it within your network

712
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:14,280
and leave us a review

713
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:16,280
on your favorite podcast platform

714
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:18,280
Your feedback helps us

715
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:20,280
to bring more incredible

716
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:22,280
guests and content to you

717
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:24,280
Thank you for tuning into

718
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:26,280
Let's Discuss Cafe

719
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:28,280
Until the next time stay caffeinated

720
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:30,280
stay curious.