Podcast with Kashika Sinha, Manager Legal Counsel, JLL

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Hey guys, welcome to another episode of LexDiscuss Cafe, where we bring you insights

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and stories from some of the most influential and dynamic professionals in the legal industry.

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Today, we are thrilled to have Kashika Sinha on our podcast, who is currently working with

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JLL.

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Now, let me tell you something about Kashika.

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She is a graduate from Symbiosis Law School, Noida, and she has also held pivotal roles

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at renowned organizations such as ENY, Atkins, and Envolta, showcasing her expertise in contract

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management, client negotiation, and compliance advisory.

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So let's welcome Kashika to the podcast.

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So Kashika, thanks a lot for joining LexDiscuss Cafe today.

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Thank you, Avinash.

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The pleasure is all mine.

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I would like to express my gratitude for having me here, and also thank you so much for giving

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me this platform to express whatever little bit of journey I have come across by doing

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this.

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You are very humble.

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I don't think we have done good enough to be, you know, to be given gratitude or something.

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We are just trying to, you know, create engaging content.

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So let's move on.

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Kashika, could you share with us the journey that led you to become a legal manager, counsel

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at JLL?

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I started with Symbiosis, that's a college in Noida, Symbiosis International University,

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that is one of the branches that is there in Noida.

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In 2016, I graduated, and however, during my college time, also, I was doing lots of

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internship in law firm and high court and in company as well.

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So from the very beginning, I had this inclination towards company because I thought that

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gave me a bigger picture always.

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Why?

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Because in the law form, there's one deal or one contract is there, right?

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And then once you draft the contract, negotiate it and just close, sign that.

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Now when in the company, when you move, you'll see how the contract really comes into play

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even in the real life, like how we are actually implementing the KPIs or liquidated damage

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clause or indemnity clause in the real life, like how the claim is coming and how we are

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going towards litigation and things like that.

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So that gave me a more, like I thought that it gave me a more visibility on what is actually

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happening and it is also somewhere connected to my interest in how the business actually

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works.

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So that's why I decided to start with in-house and then I moved to Calcutta for some

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reason.

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And in 2017, I started with Envolta, it's an in-house service provider company, mainly

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providing radiation services and commissioning and inspection and things like that.

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And since it's a new office that they incorporated at that point of time in Calcutta, I was the

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sole legal member.

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And being the sole legal member, everything was kind of entrusted on me, be it the contract

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due diligence, things, and also visiting the courts, consumer of matter if they have any.

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So that gave me bits of everything and also an exposure towards all the aspects of comprises

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and what are the security things that I need to take care of, what are the agreements and

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things like that.

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So I worked there for one year and then I was sure that I would like to further venture

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towards this part of aspect of the corporate world, knowing more about how business and

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legal really intersected in real life.

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Then I joined ENY, I was not in their in-house team, I was in their service line wings where

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I was a part of their contract drafting solution.

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I joined ENY in around 2019 and they were already using automation tools for contract

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drafting.

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So I really find that fascinating, like AI we are talking about today, they were already

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using those tools to provide contract drafting and contract life-cycling management solutions

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to their site.

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I was working for one of their big clients, Unilever, and I was working and what we used

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to do, we used to draft the contracts on all those different jurisdictions.

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Over there I gained a lot of exposure towards a variety of contracts that we have.

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I was never aware that a company had to enter so many different kinds of contracts, joint

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ventures, SaaS, service agreement, merchandise agreement, marketing agreement, things like

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that and tripartite agreement and the AI part then I was explaining that.

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So there used to be plugins and we used to enter the details and then you have to automatically

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generate the vanilla contract, we used to call vanilla contract because they are boilerplate

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terms and nothing greater than that.

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So those were the things that we were used to do and I did that for two and a half years

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three years and I found that I would like to expand my horizon a bit more so that's

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why I have joined JLL.

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JLL is a real estate company, completely different from what ENY was.

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ENY where there was a mostly restricted contract drafting and they were the service provider

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in that domain but JLL I was in their in-house team.

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I was put up in Bangalore and over here my exposure was a bit larger than JLL because

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not only contract it was also legal advisory, stakeholder management, setting out the process

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of how to increase the efficiency in the team, how to train the business to understand that

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system and also how to solve the common query, compliance sales and also EHS.

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And if you know JLL is a real estate company, it's a Fortune 500 company and it has a presence

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across 92 countries and I was responsible for managing the IFM, they are one of the

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service lines facility management and I am responsible for managing their facility management

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service contracts and vendor agreements and all the complaints for India, Sri Lanka and

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Bangladesh.

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So over here I was given an exposure of not only the draft in the compliance aspect of

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it and how the labour companies are actually working, what are the gratitude clause, why

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we need to take care of that and what are the schemes that we get.

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So that has been my journey quite far like from a service provider professional services,

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I am paid in a service industry only but the exposure is a different aspect like first

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it was a legal team of a service provider industry used to go and supply the services

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like irradiation services and inspection, EY was more into contract drafting using

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AI solutions and tools management and now JLL is completely different with respect

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to there it's a mainly a manpower oriented industry where they are supplying the manpower

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for facilitating your offices and things like that.

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So what are the labour issues that come, what are the labour compliance that I have to take

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in mind, we know we don't need to take any liability just because our persons are going

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there and performing services.

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So yeah, those are the journey that happened so far.

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Yes, interesting and you know see we all have seen the JLL logo right because they a lot

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of time is plastered over very posh buildings or posh offices around right but I understand

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a very few people actually know what JLL does right because I have been given this introduction

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by a very good friend of mine he used to work for JLL right so for our listeners would

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you care to give a very crisp description of what JLL does and what a typical day of

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yours looks at JLL.

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So JLL is basically a real estate consultancy services so when you talk about real estate

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and everything that is associated with real estate JLL does it in a whole whether they

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are doing it in India or whether they are doing it outside the world whether it's construction

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brokerage, needs admin, property development like starting from suggesting you to where

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to invest your property whether you have to construct the building like for example if

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an MNC comes whether to suggesting the MNC whether to buy the land or buy the or take

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out property from the developer to how to develop that property the designing the construction

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what is the cost that will be involved in it what is the facility management everything

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so it is like everything with related to real estate all the same that is the crispest definition

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yeah that great answer there so my next follow-up question is what a typical day looks like

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for you yeah so a typical day begins I told you I work in one of the service lines so

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that is the facility management right wherein we manage the facility of the client like

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Oracle, Facebook they have a big offices we manage their facility so we have two type

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of agreement one with the client and one with the vendor for subcontracting so my

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typical day starts with what what kind of agreements are there reviewing of the agreement

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then talking to the stakeholders there are two agreements so the for the client at agreement

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if there is some negotiation or the deal is or RFP that is going on talking to the stakeholder

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on understanding what we can negotiate on what are the point where they can let go so

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with contract negotiation and drafting and talking to the stakeholder and managing my

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contract risk takes majority of my time second time will come with respect to the vendor

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agreements wherein again what are the issues that vendors are facing what are the claims

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that we are getting to claim management little bit of advisory where that person takes away

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around like contract drafting negotiation formulating the strategy to come to the client

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so that we close the deal as soon as possible that takes majority of my time apart from

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this stakeholder management then compliances and a little bit of advisory and now right

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now I have few juniors so training them mentoring them and setting out the process to increase

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the in-house team efficiency that also takes little bit of time not in a typical day but

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yeah in a week I have to also think about that and strategize that wow so with your

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commercial contracts and you know statutory compliance so we know you have worked with

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AI right and you have worked with commercial contracts before and you know the combination

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of AI and commercial contracts is pretty used case and you have worked on such tools do

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you think there is a potential for AI to disrupt some of the tasks or problems that are faced

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by in-house sponsors in a statutory compliance area so in the statutory compliance area the

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one of the challenging part is to keep a regular monitor of what is going on what is

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the new legal program that has come up and how we should align with ourselves with it

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so AI tool right now we have not been adopting AI into that extent where they can just guide

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us that these are the new compliances that is coming up and you have to accordingly change

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your agreements to that so for example what happened sometime there is some development

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in some labor compliance aspect and now we have to change some particular clause in that contract

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and it is applicable to all the 40 or 50 or 100 vendors that we are employing so over there the

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tasks of doing that entering into that addendum and that thing get sometime a very monotonous

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and overbearing tough because you are doing the same thing over all the 50 or 100 contract you

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are replicating the clauses so over there I think AI can take a step and that is one of the challenge

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we do face sometimes where any single change in the law and you need to go back to the drafting

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addendums and things like that right and sometimes keeping up with compliances can be burdensome as

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well like because you know compliances can be coming from 50 organizations right so just because

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you are a real estate company doesn't mean that you know foreign investment compliances are not

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coming into the picture sometimes they might sometimes they don't so he manually going and

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keeping yourself updated that's a burden itself isn't it exactly for example if I give you an

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example if I find providing security services in Maharashtra and Haryana there are two different

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compliances that I need to take into account so I need to pass on the two different set of guidelines

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and regulations to my vendor for two different states so the statewide compliances also there

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widely compliant the factory and then stop shop and establishment after this are all state-centric

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wherein it varies state to state typically number of hours also vary sometimes state to state so

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over there the problem lies where keeping it up and also think like and also keeping in mind like

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where your site locations are actually where your app performing the service it was most of our clients

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are pan-india so you have to also to keep that in mind so although that little bit of challenge

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where that man our work that increases absolutely though it is something which is brain stimulating

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like it is very simple you have to just keep print tab but it takes your time absolutely and you know

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these days like in-house councils of majority of MNCs are not doing just the legal work of India

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they are also doing the legal work of you know Sri Lanka Bangladesh and all the neighboring

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countries right a lot as well so then you don't have to just worry about Indian compliances you

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also have to worry about what's happening yeah exactly for example most of the time now enter

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into the global agreement where they have a one agreement globally and they they form a local

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agreement for different countries in that you have for every country there has to be a local

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that is applicable to them and also the tax implication so that's what the tax finance legal

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everything goes all together in a contract wow and sometimes keep it up to it like if I get

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assistance through AI where they can say then these are the neighbor regulations that is applicable

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for particular countries those are the plugins so that will be a good help absolutely so moving on

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to the next question you have mentioned a strong inclination towards human rights and finance law

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how do these intersect in your current work so our human rights is a lot of human right I told you

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that our company mostly they are labor-centric because we subcontract most of our work like

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for example it's the facility management services right where we manage the facility of our client

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so it is there are works like janitorial work and labor work where we employ blue-collared

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persons so we do formulate the policies to make sure that they are as per the legal compliance

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apart from this we also are coming up with different kind of projects and policies in line

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with what is there in the legal regulations in regard to for example currently I'm working on

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one of the one of the projects wherein we are trying to make jail more friendly towards people

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with disabilities right so these are proper act under the law which talks about that there should

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be a infrastructure which should be accessible friendly to people with disabilities and these

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are proper united nation guidelines and charter on and government wants us to follow it so we

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being a real estate service provider we would like to have such policy inculcated in our HR

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system as well as we also provide such policies as the advice to our tribe to make their

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infrastructure more friendly with regards to the people with disabilities so currently I'm also

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working on this project which allows me in some way in small way to deal with this human right

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aspect where I'm trying to make the place more friendly towards them the poll because when you

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sit together you don't understand which right we don't think about that there might be some

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people who are not feeling as equal as we are because we don't have any disability current

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right I have also interviewed some people who are having people with disability and I have also

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spoken to them in order to understand what they actually go through right though we don't make

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them feel like that but in some way we don't know we don't intentionally make them feel like that

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right different intentions occur to us but in some way they may they might feel something different

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is there and that is the thing that we are coming up with and that is the thing I am liking one of

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the aspects is that wow I'm really happy to hear that you know JLL is doing this amazing work and

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you're part of that no some of our computers all it has also been certified to be the best place

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for people with disability so so we are also in that look to formulate such policy engage people

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with such and such things so that it become more inclusive culture to promote that

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wow so tell us about SLS Noida right because they know we it's like a sister institution of

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Symbiosis Law School Pune so have you ever visited there once same about Symbiosis Law

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School Noida and what's different about Symbiosis Law School Noida when we compared it with the

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original parent institution see this is the same college and we're coming under in the

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international university so it's the same college they opened a new branch in Noida which was in

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2011 and I was a part of the second so the same thing would be the curriculum the FETS

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the module their exams and semesters and things like that the different things

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what would be the infrastructure maybe they have also come up with a new campus

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so yeah so that and otherwise all everything is same I think I think that Symbiosis has a very

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strong alumni network so we still go and lean into ours with alumni we still have that group

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we still maintain those connections where we still take a leverage from being the partisan

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by so yeah that was that that is there in Pune and Noida that is the best absolutely and you know

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being in Noida you are very close to companies right so all the yeah all the companies which

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are based out of Delhi NCR right it's approachable being in Pune you don't have that much access

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because even though Pune and Mumbai is like two and a half hours away but two or three hours

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depending on which train you're taking right so but still it seems like a very different world

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but if you're staying in Noida you can easily go and intern in Gurgaon right yeah that is there

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yeah the exposure is there but I think all the big law firms are there in Mumbai also

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right so I'll ask you a controversial question is that you know when people from Symbiosis come in

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and it's like those Symbiosis Noida there so Symbiosis Pune people always get a preference

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so do you think that's true and if yes how can we change that

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I don't think that is going to change in the next 10 years because Symbiosis Pune is a very

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old institute they have a heritage they have a legacy here they they will always use that

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that you guys are like all 10 years old we are here for a generation so I think they've no

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point of fighting that battle on which is better but yeah but there is a bit of

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thing like yeah you're from Noida we are from Pune we are the originals

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yeah but yeah but I mean the network and peers and everyone they will help you

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wherever you are so it doesn't matter at that point but yeah from a joke perspective

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they will always be this thing yeah you know see the same thing happened with most of the

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national law schools as well so if you look at the national law schools ranking a lot of things

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aligns with their inception date so the older a national law school is the better the ranking

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it would have but somehow National Law school Delhi jumped yeah that's what I saw that's a

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bad phrase right so National Law school Delhi is quite late to the party but I don't know

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I think it was around 10 or 9 they they also started with that yeah it was in 2008 or 2009

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I think they started in 2009 because I gave the examination for their first batch

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I wasn't selected but I did give the examinations I think it was they started in 2009

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so somehow they skipped that rule right that the older the colleges the better ranking you could

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have right and it I think in some way not joining the clad also helped them because they're only one

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of the I think the only national law school which is not part of clad right so I don't know what is

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the current scenario these days but right so do you think symbiosis law school loiter somehow by

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not using the symbiosis name would have had a better chance of like you know creating its own

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legacy I don't think so I think it's good though because I don't think because there are lots of

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law schools that right right right so the Symbiosis what is only the thing that is

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making them different because otherwise there is not a law school in Noida only

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so they are yeah so that's not adding the name would have been helped yeah so yeah that's that's

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actually quite fair quite fair argument because I forgot like you know it's national law school

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Delhi so what made a national law school very different was the national law school and the

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fact that it was in Delhi which wasn't the case earlier right and at least at that time there

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was no national law school in Mumbai right so that's also kind of helped them because most

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like there was no national law school in the two most important cities in India right Delhi and

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Mumbai I think the government asked for Mumbai but that was right that was not so that was

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comparative to CLC Delhi right campus law center Delhi so GLC and CLC were always compared with each

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other because they were like really old a lot of people don't know GLC is actually older than the

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degree right so GLC started even before we had an lb degree

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so yeah GLC you can't compare with the heritage of CLC and GLC uh so they are definitely the

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original father and mother uh I don't know which one is father which one is mother

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I think but they should definitely be considered that right so now we are at the of this uh

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interesting topic we we have a surprise for you so we want to pick a rapid fire round with you

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in full Karan Johar style you have to answer the uh the questions very quickly so are you ready

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yeah where's are the lights these are lights anyway yeah like you should be asking for hamper

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right we have a lot of people so we'll get you a hamper maybe it won't be as good as

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the Karan Johar one but uh my thinking my expectations are very minimum

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I thought about light

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yeah let's play the garib rapid fire round the first question is which is your favorite

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legal drama series I don't watch legal drama series

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I don't know I have not I have not seen any so maybe some

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pass I've not seen so well I thought that it is bar guy I'll be a hide down and they kick

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up like that type stuff I don't find that I have not seen any other series maybe some

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random movies series I find it fake all in English stuff is majority by fake right

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like we used to yeah if you want to see the series the drama go to go to go to district

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court and family court you will be there so the next question is one law you would change if you

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could one law over time that law has already been changed now the dowry law that were there

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immediate arrest that that is dangerous sometimes people used to misuse it women a lot of times I

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would say yeah yeah no obviously there are a lot of genuine cases as well yeah yeah women cases

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but yeah that that law should have been changed yeah so why why that specific law have

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have anyone close to you been you know subject on that not like that but I find it like some of the

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laws are like especially in your family now when you are dealing with divorce and all so some of

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the laws are bit woman-centered but maybe not so much electric maybe they

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easily leverage they can easily use the loopholes right yeah so those kind of laws

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we can just have more gender equals approach towards it but yeah the condition of girls in

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India I think it is right like that absolutely and you know in a lot of way I think it's not

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a bad thing what worries like what my two cents on this topic is that instead of fixing harsh laws

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we should be fixing the delay in the judicial process right so see the problem doesn't happen

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is that you have misused the law right you have wrongly alleged someone see that's just part of

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the problem now the factor that makes it even worse in that right there's a huge delay in

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actually getting and actually deciding whether that allegation was right or wrong right sure

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so if that delay can be shortened right so even if somebody is the wrongly accusing you it will

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be sorted in a year or right so see there is more denying that they have systematic patriarchy

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in Indian society right so women should be given preference but how much that's I think is question

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for people more smarter than me so go ahead and leave it to them next question

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recent legal development you find fascinating

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recent legal development I think with regards to the data that they have come the data the

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personal data act where the penalty is very high on the breaches so I would like to see how it will

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really work because recently I read in the news the boat co-founded is a huge data breach that

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has occurred so I would like to see how that will come into effect because right now the penalty is

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500 crores I think for the data breach yeah I'm not aware I should probably read up on that

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so moving on to the next question one thing you can't start your day without

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I'm wanting my phone I'm addicted badly so

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okay I'll ask a hard question the most rewarding aspect of your job rewarding aspect of your job

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ah rewarding that they are rewarding the rewards coming bits and pieces like when

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did a good deal that good got closed and then get out recognition and all things like that

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this interview is of the right kind of reward okay a lot of people who have come down here would

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would like to dissection but let's move on uh your go to stress buster go to stress buster I like

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swimming so that is one of the things dancing is also one and I'm talking to my friend

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absolutely last question one word to describe your experience as some voices you asked for

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ah memory oh wow very diplomatic answer

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uh

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so yeah as we are running out of time I'll ask just one more question right what is the

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common misconceptions about legal profession that you would like to address so there are a lot of

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misconceptions but like with in-house uh there's one of the misconceptions that they are just to

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support function so it's and that's also they are just to support

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legally for the support function and they they delays on contract without any reason

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they just say that it is a risk it's a risk I don't see any risk

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I that that's absolutely on the point so Kashika thanks a lot for coming on this podcast it was

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really uh entertaining and informative thank you so much for having me here yeah yeah yeah

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you're reading my name okay I forgot I talked it too so no worries no worries it happens to me as

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well so thanks again uh we hope if we do some panel discussion or uh podcast we'll be more

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than happy to invite you again definitely definitely I would like to join let me know

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if we hope our audience has enjoyed this deep dive into the legal world and has taken away

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meaningful insights that can be applied to their own careers if you enjoyed today's episode please

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don't forget to subscribe rate and leave us a review stay tuned for more episodes featuring

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incredible guests who are making waves in the legal profession until next time this is your

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host Avinash Tripathi signing off thank you for listening