Podcast with Lovleen Mishra, Deputy Manager- Legal, Quest Retail Pvt. Ltd.

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Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of LexDiscuss Cafe, where we dive into

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the dynamic world of law, business and beyond.

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Today, we have a truly exceptional guest with us.

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So give a warm welcome to Lovleen Mishra.

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She is an experienced legal manager with a robust career in law practice and corporate

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industry.

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So grab your coffee and get ready for an engaging and insightful conversation.

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So Lovleen, welcome to LexDiscuss Cafe and please for the listeners who don't know

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anything about you, would you care to give them like a very short and crisp description

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or introduction of yourself?

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Hi everybody and hi Avinash.

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I am Lovleen Mishra.

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I am currently, I'm 27 years old.

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I have somewhere about five, five and a half years of experience in law from ranging from

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litigation, appropriation, and currently I'm doing, working as an in-house counsel in a

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company called Co-Suite Private Limited.

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And I hear from Alwar Rajasthan and currently I'm putting up in Gurgaon in the concrete

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jungle.

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You can say it.

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Yeah.

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Tell me about it.

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So Lovleen, let's start from Avinash as one of your law professors would say.

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You did your college from UBS, right?

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So as we all know, UBS is considered to be a mid-tier college, right?

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It's not as good as national law schools, but it's still doing a lot of amazing stuff.

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So tell us about that.

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So just to give you a brief background about myself, I have been obsessed with science

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a lot for the most of my life.

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My dad was a teacher.

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He taught science.

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He's a government teacher.

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He used to be.

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He's retired now.

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So I was always obsessed with maths and science.

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And at the age that we were in high school, there was this expectation that you should

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go to the science part of high school and, you know.

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So I started my Inevent in 12th and I had physics, chemistry, maths in that.

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I stuck at civics, sorry for the word, but I was not good at it.

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I was like the Isha and I was the of physics.

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I did not understand like anything that was going on over there.

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And I distinctly remember that I came to Delhi and there was some sort of an exam, maybe

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I guess IIT exam was there.

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And I was coming back.

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I was with my father on the radio station and I was like, Papa nahi karna, Papa mujhse

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nahi ho payega.

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I want to do law because it was the next best thing that I knew of at that time.

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So I just, you know, went to Jodhpur for a month.

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I did a crash course and then I gave my class and various examinations like, you know, sorted

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out a few of the universities.

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And out of those universities, probably UBES was the only university that was giving that

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kind of an interesting course, you may say.

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So I joined in over there.

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The experience, you may say, was really fulfilling, especially because you get to live in Dehradun

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and the uni location is in the middle of nowhere.

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There are just like, you know, trees and mountains and hills everywhere.

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And it's beautiful.

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That place that you go once in your life and then, you know, get homesick for all of your

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life.

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So even yesterday, I was just, you know, going through Google Earth and looking at my university

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that, okay, kya hoda aap pe, let's see, let's see how it is right now.

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So one of the things that I was doing, I was like, let's just go to Dehradun right now

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and maybe just, you know, how wonderful it would be that if you go there and work there.

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And it's just like, you know, small things that get stuck with you.

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In that sense, it was really good.

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The courses that were offered over there, they were really good because generally people

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were learning about the basics of law.

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We were learning about mining law, we were learning about aviation law, space law, ports

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and shipping and all.

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So the study was very comprehensive, you can say.

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Yeah, thanks for sharing that.

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But do you regret not taking a year off and trying again for national law schools?

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No, not really.

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Because, like, you know, I've given that to my younger sister as well.

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I have a younger sister, she's a doctor right now.

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So I've told her this as well.

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So actually it depends upon the kind of mindset that you have at that time.

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If you are not in that mind frame that, okay, I will sit back for one more year and then

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I'll give the NLUK exam and you are not in that sort of mindset and then, you know, forcefully

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sitting over there and just like, you know, do it just for the sake of doing it does not

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actually make sense to me.

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You can excel from a government school and you can excel in a private school and you

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can excel from a like, you know, amazing one of those boarding school expensive as hell.

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You know, life happens and the way that you make it, in my opinion, and I guess that we

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are the product of life that we have lived.

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So for that, I do not have any regrets.

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I mean, not just for this, for anything in my life.

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Okay, I'm happy.

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I think that's the best thing you can have in life is not having regrets.

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But you know, since you are in your early stage of career, don't you notice that, you

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know, every time you're meeting a new guy or new person, the first question would be

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your name.

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The second question will be like, you know, a very formal introduction and the third or

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the fourth question for sure would be which college did you graduate from?

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And like, you know, in a subtle way, I think that our legal profession is divided in national

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law school students and non national law students.

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So and that is, you know, a tag that stays with you for the rest of your life.

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So for that tag and for that, don't think like it's worth to spend one year in preparing

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for class.

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I mean, if we talk about the jobs or if you talk about the people, I believe rather than

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regretting over the fact that something has happened for such a while, like, you know,

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almost 10 years back, we should cut those people off who judge us by the college that

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we studied in.

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And like, you know, any place that puts your education in terms of where you were educated

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from rather than what kind of a person you are and what kind of a professional life that

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you've built, because that is entirely two different things.

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You can just go to a national law school and not do anything.

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And that typically happens because once you get that security, you do not strive for law.

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You only strive for more when you do not have that sort of things.

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So yeah, it's all right in my opinion.

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Yeah, no, I get it.

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I will not press harder.

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I don't want to pressure the left.

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But you know, what I'll say is that the experience that has been shared with me from national

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law school students is that, yeah, we definitely get that security.

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But this is only part of the story because you're forced into a peer group, which is

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so good at so many things, right?

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You see your roommate or hostile roommate and they are winning a moot court competition

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or they are doing an internship in some amazing firm.

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You automatically start doing like, you know, I have to beat that guy or I have to at least

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match that.

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And which I feel is something which lacks in non national law is not having that alumni

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network, which has achieved so many things, right?

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So like because a lot of times you learn in classes, but a lot of times you learn from

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your seniors, right?

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OK, these are the things which you really need to pay attention to.

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And these are the internships, while internships, how you're supposed to behave, right?

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Which I think not having that stronger or accomplished alumni network really hurts you

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in the initial days.

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That is actually very, very true.

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When I started my career and there were not that many placements happening in my college

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at that time. There was just some one or two LPOs or one or two power companies that came

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in. All companies that came in, they only came in for one position.

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And like, you know, that position had to be filled by a guy.

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So that was there.

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So I believe, yes, if we had that sort of alumni support, it would have, you know,

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changed in many ways.

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But the competition is actually really less because people here also, the priorities

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become steps. Then that becomes an individual responsibility rather than societal

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responsibility where it comes from a class or from like some sort of project you're

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doing, some sort of a move preparation you're doing.

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Then comes like, you know, that one group project in which only one person is working

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and rest of the people are slacking off and they are just reaping the benefits of that

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one person. So I actually agree with you over the alumni part of things.

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Yeah. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.

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Right. So tell us about like, you know, now looking back, how would you have done

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things differently in your law school?

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Like, you know, now if you have a younger brother or sister and he or she is in the

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same position as you are.

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So what advice will you give, like focus on the classes more or do more internships,

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do mood boards, what you would have done differently?

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First of all, that, you know, in my opinion, one should be kinder to themselves.

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You know, if you have not done something in the last year, maybe you can just start

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off right now. OK, that like, you know, any time is a good day to start.

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OK, so that would be my personal opinion regarding the type of work that they should

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do. Classes, yes, obviously becomes an obvious part of the routine that you have, but

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co-curricular activities and course and internships for that matter.

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Because once you talk about any field, the experience matters more than the classroom.

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The things, the world is your classroom, you can say.

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The things that you learn outside, you can never learn in a classroom.

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I mean, I did not learn conflict drafting in my classroom.

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I directly from litigation in the house and then just like, you know, did it.

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That just happened. So internships, yes, very much.

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So look for startups and who have a lot of work and a very small workforce so that you

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can learn new things. You can learn how to build a business.

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You may learn how to make deals and you can learn the priorities that people have

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because we as lawyers are very client company connected regarding like, you know, from

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whatever base you are coming from.

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So you have to understand the needs of people.

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So that comes from, I believe, the communication that you are having with the other

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person, not from what you are getting taught by a teacher.

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I did not do that. I, FYI, I was the, you know, first bench person.

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OK, I'm writing everything.

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I'll make all the notes and I'll do good in my classes.

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Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting.

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So you you sound like a very sorted person right now, like, you know, OK, yeah, things are

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sorted in your head. But I understand that wasn't the case initially when we joined the

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law school. And I believe you suffered from some medical conditions as well during the

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law school that kind of created hindrance in having a normal college life.

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So can you throw a little bit of light on that experience?

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Yeah. So when I started off, I was very young.

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I was fairly young from the other students of my class.

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They were probably 18, 19 year olds and I was 16 year old.

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I was thrown off to school very early in my life.

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I started my schooling at two and a half years of age because everybody in my family is

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from education background.

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So they, you know, taught me really things like, you know, really early on in my life.

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And then they were like, OK, now it's time to go to school.

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So since I started off that early, I obviously completed my school really early.

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And then I joined the college really early, but I was not that mature for joining the

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college at the time. It was basically just the connection part of things, because they're

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not thinking in the same way that you are.

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Their priorities are not the same as yours are.

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On a very completely different note, we were also not from the same financial background

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as well, because if you go to UPS, they are rich, rich people, they are ultra rich people.

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And the middle class people are fairly small and lower middle class are close to, you know,

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negligent. So that was also something like, you know, whether you can partake in that

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type of activities that they are carrying on.

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So the connection was very much missing.

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I was not you cannot say that mentally not disturbed, but more like alone in sort of

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a way. So after that, I was actually obviously once you go out, your diet changes.

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I come from Rajasthan. We eat roti.

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There I saw for the first time in my life that people are eating rice both the times.

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I could not comprehend that.

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I see, you know, at one point you go out and the sheer cultural differences in your country

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that was that point in my life.

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How can I eat that?

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Why is there no butter over the roti?

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How can I eat that? So it was just like, you know, a sense of, I don't know, I do not

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have any words to explain that, but isolation was there.

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So due to that isolation, I started getting seizures.

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And I mean, once we thought that there might be some sort of an issue, there might be some

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sort of clot or something like that.

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So while we went to the doctors, they told us it is just stress.

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She's just anxieties off the charts and she's also a bit depressed.

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And rather than coming to me, you should go to a therapist, go talk to them.

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And obviously, my parents were really scared.

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My parents also did not know that something like this happens.

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Do people get seizures like that?

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So obviously, I went back home.

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I was going for nine months or so.

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I did a few months of my third semester, I guess.

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Yeah, second year of my college, third semester.

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I did a few months of my third semester and then I came back home.

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Obviously, I wanted to join in the same university.

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I was also very adamant over that fact.

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So I went back to college and the stairs that I got was like, you know, either pretty

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or, you know, what the fuck are you doing over here?

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00:14:49,140 --> 00:14:52,260
You know, they were they were questioning my life choices at that point.

229
00:14:52,380 --> 00:14:53,420
OK, what are you doing?

230
00:14:53,420 --> 00:14:57,820
And or like, you know, anybody who would see me, they were like, are you all right?

231
00:14:57,980 --> 00:15:01,180
And that is the one question that I hate the most.

232
00:15:01,660 --> 00:15:04,500
But why are you, why are you asking me, am I all right?

233
00:15:04,500 --> 00:15:06,700
Because, you know, I'm here.

234
00:15:06,820 --> 00:15:11,660
OK, the teachers support, especially a few of them that was out there.

235
00:15:11,860 --> 00:15:16,340
And that really was, you know, almost one year.

236
00:15:16,380 --> 00:15:18,780
I did not even know what to go on about.

237
00:15:19,220 --> 00:15:21,020
So, yes, that was there.

238
00:15:21,020 --> 00:15:25,460
But I believe that the mature person that you're calling in right now.

239
00:15:25,900 --> 00:15:31,380
And that because of those reasons, because I was taught to sort out my priorities.

240
00:15:31,580 --> 00:15:33,860
I was taught to connect the people more.

241
00:15:33,860 --> 00:15:37,780
And, you know, obviously not everybody that you come across

242
00:15:37,780 --> 00:15:40,100
will be the same person as you are.

243
00:15:40,140 --> 00:15:42,460
But there might be some things that you share.

244
00:15:43,540 --> 00:15:45,260
So connect for those things.

245
00:15:45,260 --> 00:15:48,660
And I started writing and started writing a lot.

246
00:15:49,060 --> 00:15:50,780
I used to write poems.

247
00:15:50,780 --> 00:15:53,060
I used to write short stories at that time.

248
00:15:54,180 --> 00:15:59,660
And that was sort of, you know, that, OK, I would go out,

249
00:15:59,660 --> 00:16:02,980
I would look at trees and I would look at people and I would write about them.

250
00:16:03,660 --> 00:16:06,540
So that sort of like, you know, sorted me out.

251
00:16:06,940 --> 00:16:10,580
And I guess that was for the good, because I made such good friends

252
00:16:10,940 --> 00:16:15,540
in my new class and like, you know, in your batch, one of them was getting married.

253
00:16:17,580 --> 00:16:20,340
So that was good. Yeah.

254
00:16:20,340 --> 00:16:21,260
Thanks for sharing that.

255
00:16:21,260 --> 00:16:25,060
I'm sure it was tough for you to, you know, relive those moments.

256
00:16:25,060 --> 00:16:28,820
But I think it's important for a lot of people to hear

257
00:16:29,140 --> 00:16:32,500
if you are one of those people who feel that you don't fit in here.

258
00:16:32,500 --> 00:16:34,500
It's OK. Right.

259
00:16:34,500 --> 00:16:37,940
You may not be in the majority, but there are a lot of people like you

260
00:16:37,940 --> 00:16:40,260
and there's nothing wrong with you if you feel that way.

261
00:16:40,460 --> 00:16:43,260
I think that's that's something which is important to emphasize.

262
00:16:43,260 --> 00:16:46,820
And I wanted to touch upon, like, because there's a lot of stigma attached

263
00:16:46,820 --> 00:16:50,100
to the fact that you are seeking help for mental health. Right.

264
00:16:50,380 --> 00:16:52,780
So do you want to share your thoughts on that?

265
00:16:54,180 --> 00:16:57,500
I mean, it depends upon the kind of therapist that you have.

266
00:16:58,060 --> 00:17:00,060
There are bad people as well.

267
00:17:00,060 --> 00:17:03,060
There are people who would just, you know, show you two pictures.

268
00:17:03,060 --> 00:17:05,300
OK, tell me what do you see in this?

269
00:17:05,300 --> 00:17:07,540
What do you see in this rather than actually helping you out?

270
00:17:07,540 --> 00:17:12,460
And then there are people who actually want to listen to you regarding everything.

271
00:17:12,860 --> 00:17:14,980
It does not matter what you're talking about.

272
00:17:15,300 --> 00:17:20,140
And it is a good thing, especially for people who are, you know,

273
00:17:20,300 --> 00:17:23,820
who used to be, I mean, I'm still an introvert, but I'm talking to you.

274
00:17:23,820 --> 00:17:26,220
I've gained that confidence in life right now.

275
00:17:26,580 --> 00:17:30,060
But who are introverts who cannot talk to people or

276
00:17:30,420 --> 00:17:34,460
or who just have difficulty sharing these things with their close

277
00:17:34,780 --> 00:17:38,100
like, you know, their close friends or family,

278
00:17:38,100 --> 00:17:41,780
because you have that sort of thing going in the back of your head

279
00:17:41,780 --> 00:17:43,100
that what they will think.

280
00:17:43,100 --> 00:17:47,740
So a stranger sitting in front of you and telling them and you understanding

281
00:17:47,740 --> 00:17:50,260
it's a sort of comfort in my opinion.

282
00:17:50,260 --> 00:17:54,100
I, you know, just like most of the times, you just want like, you know,

283
00:17:54,100 --> 00:17:56,740
people listen to what you want to say rather than any medication.

284
00:17:57,140 --> 00:17:59,020
So that actually really helps.

285
00:17:59,020 --> 00:18:02,380
So if somebody is going through it, I would highly recommend

286
00:18:02,500 --> 00:18:05,020
go to a therapist and go to a good therapist.

287
00:18:05,020 --> 00:18:07,540
Just get some recommendation from people around you.

288
00:18:08,020 --> 00:18:10,500
Right. It's also very expensive.

289
00:18:13,380 --> 00:18:15,820
I agree with you. I completely agree with your experience.

290
00:18:15,980 --> 00:18:18,380
And this is something I have never publicly admitted so far,

291
00:18:18,380 --> 00:18:19,900
but it was just for the record.

292
00:18:19,900 --> 00:18:23,620
I have also suffered from mental health issues.

293
00:18:23,860 --> 00:18:26,220
I have gone to therapy, I have taken medications as well.

294
00:18:26,460 --> 00:18:30,460
And in the hindsight, it was the best decision I ever took in my life.

295
00:18:30,460 --> 00:18:34,700
So if anybody is going through a similar problem, it's OK.

296
00:18:35,500 --> 00:18:37,100
There is nothing wrong with you.

297
00:18:37,100 --> 00:18:42,620
And seeking help for mental health is not as bad as everyone around you

298
00:18:42,620 --> 00:18:44,540
makes it out to be.

299
00:18:44,540 --> 00:18:48,660
So talk to a therapist and especially talk to a good therapist.

300
00:18:49,020 --> 00:18:50,500
Get in touch with either of us.

301
00:18:50,500 --> 00:18:52,260
We'll give you a recommendation.

302
00:18:52,500 --> 00:18:56,900
Because we both of us have wasted a lot of money on shitty therapists.

303
00:18:57,020 --> 00:19:01,260
I'll tell you by shitty therapist, he was trying to pitch me an MLM scheme

304
00:19:01,500 --> 00:19:05,420
during therapy and I was like, you are kidding me.

305
00:19:07,060 --> 00:19:09,580
You are kidding me. And then see this way, I completely agree.

306
00:19:09,580 --> 00:19:11,460
There are a lot of shitty therapists.

307
00:19:11,460 --> 00:19:15,460
And one of the things that I've learned the hard way, I'll say you,

308
00:19:15,620 --> 00:19:19,500
because the profession of counselors or therapists, right, is not regulated.

309
00:19:19,660 --> 00:19:23,140
So anybody who is doing psychology can become a therapist, right?

310
00:19:23,820 --> 00:19:27,580
But for people who have done PhD in psychology, right?

311
00:19:27,860 --> 00:19:31,060
This this will rule out a lot of good therapists.

312
00:19:31,260 --> 00:19:36,180
But I have seen is that the chances of landing up

313
00:19:36,180 --> 00:19:38,740
with a bad therapist is substantially less.

314
00:19:38,980 --> 00:19:43,460
If you go for a therapist who has done MPhil or PhD in psychology,

315
00:19:43,460 --> 00:19:45,380
that is something some of my experience.

316
00:19:45,380 --> 00:19:47,660
But again, if you want recommendation on this issue,

317
00:19:47,660 --> 00:19:49,340
please get in touch with either of us.

318
00:19:49,340 --> 00:19:52,060
We'll share our email ID below

319
00:19:52,060 --> 00:19:54,700
and we can give you free, of course, therapy as well.

320
00:19:56,100 --> 00:19:58,580
We can connect our shared trauma.

321
00:19:58,580 --> 00:20:00,100
Yeah, it's OK.

322
00:20:00,100 --> 00:20:03,140
Probably we will be able to understand what you're going through

323
00:20:03,260 --> 00:20:05,140
because we ourselves have gone that.

324
00:20:05,140 --> 00:20:08,660
But yeah, not enough emotional stuff moving on.

325
00:20:08,940 --> 00:20:11,020
This is supposed to be a professional podcast.

326
00:20:12,940 --> 00:20:15,180
So tell us like, you know, you have done

327
00:20:15,180 --> 00:20:18,060
you started your career as a litigator and then you shifted

328
00:20:18,060 --> 00:20:19,940
to an in-house council, right?

329
00:20:19,940 --> 00:20:22,820
And a lot of people want to do that transition, right?

330
00:20:22,820 --> 00:20:25,220
Because litigation doesn't pay well.

331
00:20:25,500 --> 00:20:27,660
It doesn't pay at all in the initial days.

332
00:20:27,660 --> 00:20:29,700
So tell us somebody wants to do that.

333
00:20:29,700 --> 00:20:30,980
How would they prepare?

334
00:20:30,980 --> 00:20:34,020
What kind of things they can start doing?

335
00:20:34,020 --> 00:20:37,460
So I would recommend that you join in a law firm

336
00:20:37,460 --> 00:20:41,500
that also has a corporate advisory practice going on,

337
00:20:41,780 --> 00:20:45,060
because that is probably, in my opinion, the easiest way

338
00:20:45,100 --> 00:20:49,380
that you can seamlessly transition into contract drafting and everything.

339
00:20:49,780 --> 00:20:53,380
Since drafting for litigation documents and drafting for contracts

340
00:20:53,380 --> 00:20:56,580
is entirely different, it's like North Pole and South Pole.

341
00:20:56,820 --> 00:21:01,140
So even though it's just language, but it is actually very different.

342
00:21:01,820 --> 00:21:07,220
So I think that you should start off with some sort of a law firm

343
00:21:07,220 --> 00:21:12,260
that also has some small advisory for corporate clients and everything.

344
00:21:12,900 --> 00:21:15,900
And then later on, in my opinion,

345
00:21:16,300 --> 00:21:21,060
what you can do is that is start working on small lease agreements.

346
00:21:21,740 --> 00:21:26,860
So, of course, since I work in retail and incidentally,

347
00:21:26,860 --> 00:21:30,340
in my law firm career in supply and sales,

348
00:21:30,340 --> 00:21:34,420
I started working very, very small, like two, three pager lease agreement.

349
00:21:34,820 --> 00:21:36,820
So that gives you basic understandings.

350
00:21:36,820 --> 00:21:40,060
You also have like, you know, if you're living on rent,

351
00:21:40,300 --> 00:21:42,100
then you also have your lease agreements.

352
00:21:42,100 --> 00:21:46,100
But there's so start looking for things that you would think

353
00:21:46,100 --> 00:21:49,060
that would benefit you, obviously, then you can look for many things.

354
00:21:49,260 --> 00:21:52,260
There are there are non boilerplate clauses,

355
00:21:52,420 --> 00:21:55,340
since those are necessarily seen for everything,

356
00:21:55,580 --> 00:21:57,740
at least for one kind of agreement.

357
00:21:58,220 --> 00:22:01,100
So start learning the terminology, start learning

358
00:22:01,420 --> 00:22:04,380
what is that a business requires.

359
00:22:04,580 --> 00:22:08,260
And yes, you're right, litigation actually does not pay at all.

360
00:22:08,660 --> 00:22:13,980
It was my first salary, I am discloser, it was eight thousand rupees.

361
00:22:14,420 --> 00:22:16,500
Yeah, thank you.

362
00:22:16,500 --> 00:22:19,540
Same here, my first salary was also eight thousand rupees.

363
00:22:19,900 --> 00:22:21,940
Even though I was working with a law firm,

364
00:22:23,180 --> 00:22:26,660
but they had this thing that you have to first intern with us for three months.

365
00:22:26,900 --> 00:22:30,020
So the stipend for that was eight thousand rupees.

366
00:22:30,020 --> 00:22:32,700
Yeah, you were getting a stipend.

367
00:22:33,980 --> 00:22:37,180
Yeah, I'm going after graduating, right.

368
00:22:37,180 --> 00:22:39,300
And I was part of their litigation team.

369
00:22:39,300 --> 00:22:41,500
So, yeah, I can completely understand.

370
00:22:41,940 --> 00:22:45,980
And to be fair, my a lot of peers that I had for them, even eight thousand

371
00:22:45,980 --> 00:22:48,700
was a surprise, they were like, oh, God, you are even getting eight thousand.

372
00:22:48,940 --> 00:22:51,300
A lot of people were not even getting that.

373
00:22:51,300 --> 00:22:53,460
Yeah, that's why I said that you were getting stipend.

374
00:22:53,460 --> 00:22:58,220
So once you go to any litigation lawyer or firm for that matter,

375
00:22:58,220 --> 00:23:00,420
they will not pay you any stipend internship.

376
00:23:00,420 --> 00:23:03,740
Stipend is not existing, at least in that time.

377
00:23:03,740 --> 00:23:06,820
I mean, we currently pay our interns over here.

378
00:23:07,540 --> 00:23:11,100
But, yeah, at that time, nobody was paying us.

379
00:23:11,100 --> 00:23:16,820
And I believe the ODD stipend I got was for 2500 rupees

380
00:23:17,100 --> 00:23:20,660
once when I was in, you know, fourth year or fifth year, something like that.

381
00:23:21,740 --> 00:23:25,980
But litigation actually teaches you a lot about legal procedures

382
00:23:25,980 --> 00:23:30,300
and how to go on about the legal professional life.

383
00:23:30,740 --> 00:23:35,860
It teaches you also, you know, discipline for that matter, how to talk,

384
00:23:36,540 --> 00:23:38,780
how to talk inside of an authority,

385
00:23:39,460 --> 00:23:42,340
how to talk with people who have the same intellect as you,

386
00:23:42,340 --> 00:23:44,220
but are on the other side.

387
00:23:44,220 --> 00:23:47,140
So it teaches you a lot of things, but, you know,

388
00:23:48,460 --> 00:23:51,380
it depends what kind of thing that you want to do in life.

389
00:23:52,260 --> 00:23:56,860
For any future legal professional, I would want to say that you should go

390
00:23:57,380 --> 00:24:00,980
and you should explore a bit in the starting years of your career.

391
00:24:01,180 --> 00:24:03,900
You should explore and see what interests you, because there's a certain thing

392
00:24:03,900 --> 00:24:06,740
that you necessarily will be doing for the rest of your life,

393
00:24:06,940 --> 00:24:08,540
you know, until you retire.

394
00:24:08,540 --> 00:24:10,900
Lawyers never retire. They do not.

395
00:24:11,220 --> 00:24:16,140
So you will want to do something that actually gives you that peace of mind.

396
00:24:16,140 --> 00:24:20,180
OK, you know, once you go to sleep and you are actually happy

397
00:24:20,180 --> 00:24:24,700
and not thinking about, OK, now I have to go to office tomorrow.

398
00:24:25,340 --> 00:24:27,740
And that is not a good way to live.

399
00:24:27,780 --> 00:24:31,380
And you should not be afraid to start over,

400
00:24:31,380 --> 00:24:33,500
let's say if something has not worked out for you.

401
00:24:33,620 --> 00:24:37,740
You should not be afraid that, OK, you know, now what can I do?

402
00:24:38,380 --> 00:24:42,740
The first step there is difficult, but then the rest of the things just follow.

403
00:24:44,140 --> 00:24:48,100
So once I moved in for my litigation in-house,

404
00:24:48,100 --> 00:24:52,060
in-house, actually, I used to be terrified of litigation.

405
00:24:52,260 --> 00:24:55,140
I used to be very interested with, like, you know, all the background work

406
00:24:55,140 --> 00:24:58,780
and everything, I used to love drafting and but I used to be terrified

407
00:24:58,780 --> 00:25:00,420
to go in front of court.

408
00:25:00,420 --> 00:25:03,020
I would go there. I would have my arguments and everything.

409
00:25:03,180 --> 00:25:06,260
And, you know, how the lawyers are in court,

410
00:25:06,500 --> 00:25:10,220
people are standing behind you, making a line and you're like,

411
00:25:10,220 --> 00:25:14,500
you're in grocery store and the person in front of you has given you change

412
00:25:14,500 --> 00:25:16,900
and you're just connecting it inside.

413
00:25:16,900 --> 00:25:19,140
You are just panicking, OK, we may be able to cry.

414
00:25:19,140 --> 00:25:21,460
They won't want to come in.

415
00:25:21,460 --> 00:25:24,100
So it was just like that sort of, OK, I'm arranging my file.

416
00:25:24,100 --> 00:25:26,860
I'm just going and every single time

417
00:25:27,700 --> 00:25:31,300
I had forgotten the next date, I would wait outside

418
00:25:31,300 --> 00:25:33,340
for the other party's council.

419
00:25:33,340 --> 00:25:36,260
I would ask them, do you remember what is the next date?

420
00:25:36,260 --> 00:25:38,860
Because I was so panicked all the time.

421
00:25:39,500 --> 00:25:40,580
That was not good.

422
00:25:40,580 --> 00:25:43,060
That was like, you know, at that time, I thought that, OK,

423
00:25:43,060 --> 00:25:45,580
maybe it would be safe for every single person.

424
00:25:45,580 --> 00:25:47,940
But apparently it is not. And that was not good.

425
00:25:48,180 --> 00:25:51,020
Once I joined in in-house, it was much more easier.

426
00:25:51,020 --> 00:25:53,460
My confidence was very much boosted.

427
00:25:53,900 --> 00:25:58,980
I actually find, you know, corporate advisory

428
00:25:59,020 --> 00:26:01,220
and contract management very interesting right now.

429
00:26:01,900 --> 00:26:05,980
So I believe, yeah, if somebody is going through the same,

430
00:26:05,980 --> 00:26:10,820
just explore a bit and maybe you would find that it's the life,

431
00:26:10,820 --> 00:26:13,660
like, you know, the professional life is not that terrifying, actually.

432
00:26:15,180 --> 00:26:18,620
That's true. But, you know, the common wisdom on this is like litigation

433
00:26:18,620 --> 00:26:21,340
is tough, it doesn't pay, but it's more a lot more interesting.

434
00:26:21,540 --> 00:26:24,660
And the corporate jobs are usually quite boring.

435
00:26:24,980 --> 00:26:27,300
But I'm happy that you don't find it that way.

436
00:26:28,300 --> 00:26:31,060
I think you're the first person in my whole life I've met

437
00:26:31,060 --> 00:26:34,620
who says that corporate advisory is more interesting than litigation.

438
00:26:36,500 --> 00:26:40,020
That kind of work that you're getting once when I joined him

439
00:26:40,020 --> 00:26:42,980
as an in-house consultant, I joined him with a startup.

440
00:26:42,980 --> 00:26:44,260
It was a startup at that time.

441
00:26:44,260 --> 00:26:46,220
I was the only legal person over there.

442
00:26:46,220 --> 00:26:49,140
We had an outside consultant for some while.

443
00:26:49,180 --> 00:26:51,740
But then again, I was the only person over there.

444
00:26:52,020 --> 00:26:55,060
So it was not just law that I was doing.

445
00:26:55,220 --> 00:26:58,380
It was not just drafting and everything that I was doing.

446
00:26:58,380 --> 00:27:02,580
I was actually looking into a very bigger part of the business.

447
00:27:02,580 --> 00:27:04,940
I was seeing how the transaction is happening.

448
00:27:04,940 --> 00:27:09,860
And I believe for if you want to be a happier contractual lawyer

449
00:27:09,860 --> 00:27:12,260
and if you want to go into corporate advisory,

450
00:27:12,260 --> 00:27:15,380
you should actually know how corporate works and how businesses work.

451
00:27:15,620 --> 00:27:19,500
If you do not understand, obviously, then it will be another nine to five job.

452
00:27:19,660 --> 00:27:22,100
If you do not understand what's happening and I just want to talk about,

453
00:27:22,100 --> 00:27:24,860
OK, this is other legal points, the rest of them

454
00:27:24,900 --> 00:27:26,580
are to be handled by the business.

455
00:27:26,580 --> 00:27:28,860
But like, you know, you have a mind.

456
00:27:28,860 --> 00:27:32,420
You can take a call on that and you should understand what is going on, actually.

457
00:27:32,420 --> 00:27:34,980
And once you understand what is going on in the market,

458
00:27:35,220 --> 00:27:38,540
what is going on in your industry, you find an industry.

459
00:27:39,340 --> 00:27:41,180
Yeah, absolutely. Well said that.

460
00:27:41,180 --> 00:27:45,660
You have worked in a startup where you were the only legal person, right?

461
00:27:45,660 --> 00:27:48,580
Because a lot of listeners to our podcast are entrepreneurs.

462
00:27:48,780 --> 00:27:52,500
So they ask us in comments is what is the right time

463
00:27:52,500 --> 00:27:54,700
to hire their first legal person, right?

464
00:27:54,700 --> 00:27:57,340
So what is your thoughts on that?

465
00:27:57,340 --> 00:28:02,220
I would suggest that once you are at least one year into business,

466
00:28:02,220 --> 00:28:04,860
I would suggest that you have one person in your team.

467
00:28:05,100 --> 00:28:09,020
I am not saying for probably the next seven, eight years of life,

468
00:28:09,020 --> 00:28:10,740
you would only need one person.

469
00:28:10,740 --> 00:28:13,900
But you should have that basic team in your life.

470
00:28:13,900 --> 00:28:17,300
Maybe for the first year, your business is also not starting at that time.

471
00:28:17,620 --> 00:28:19,260
You are just into inception.

472
00:28:19,260 --> 00:28:21,700
You are formulating. You are organizing.

473
00:28:21,700 --> 00:28:23,860
You are getting an office and everything.

474
00:28:23,860 --> 00:28:27,100
So for that one year, your actual transaction are also not starting.

475
00:28:27,300 --> 00:28:30,100
So in that case, you can have a consultant and the people

476
00:28:30,100 --> 00:28:32,780
who are going to make some basic documentation for you,

477
00:28:33,060 --> 00:28:36,020
people who are going to do filings for you. That's all right.

478
00:28:36,020 --> 00:28:40,820
But once you have properly started, it's needed that you have one person

479
00:28:40,820 --> 00:28:42,500
who can protect your interests.

480
00:28:42,500 --> 00:28:46,420
And they may not be that much experienced,

481
00:28:46,620 --> 00:28:51,060
but they should understand because obviously one.

482
00:28:51,900 --> 00:28:54,980
And I've seen this in most of the founders, I'm sorry,

483
00:28:55,300 --> 00:28:58,460
but they want to do everything. And that is a bad thing.

484
00:28:59,220 --> 00:29:02,900
You I mean, obviously, you should know everything about your business,

485
00:29:02,900 --> 00:29:06,660
but you need not do everything because you need not be good in everything.

486
00:29:07,020 --> 00:29:10,020
You may be brilliant in the type of work that you're doing,

487
00:29:10,020 --> 00:29:14,620
but but you would also need support in life, you know, like you would.

488
00:29:15,300 --> 00:29:18,460
Once a person is starting business and once they are hiring a team,

489
00:29:18,820 --> 00:29:21,020
they would obviously hire a marketing person.

490
00:29:21,020 --> 00:29:23,140
Right. They would hire a sales guy.

491
00:29:23,500 --> 00:29:28,220
They would hire, like, you know, an operations guy or a CEO.

492
00:29:28,220 --> 00:29:32,060
But like, you know, why do you want to cut off on illegal

493
00:29:32,300 --> 00:29:35,180
is beyond my understanding, because then, you know, basically,

494
00:29:35,180 --> 00:29:38,100
instead of mitigating the risk, you're just saying, let's say,

495
00:29:40,100 --> 00:29:45,060
look, the attitude is something that, you know, later on costs you a lot,

496
00:29:45,420 --> 00:29:48,020
which would have been avoided in the starting stage.

497
00:29:48,460 --> 00:29:50,260
No, I couldn't agree more.

498
00:29:50,260 --> 00:29:52,260
But what happens is that, you know, a lot of time,

499
00:29:52,620 --> 00:29:56,780
what entrepreneurs think that is because we understand so little about legal.

500
00:29:57,300 --> 00:29:59,140
Let's just outsource this function.

501
00:29:59,140 --> 00:30:02,860
Instead of getting a guy in house, let's just outsource this function.

502
00:30:02,860 --> 00:30:07,220
But the drawback of this approach is the person you are outsourcing

503
00:30:07,220 --> 00:30:10,780
your legal function to would never take time to understand your business.

504
00:30:11,300 --> 00:30:15,740
Right. And that's one of the critical things, which I believe startup

505
00:30:16,020 --> 00:30:17,740
founders should take into consideration

506
00:30:17,740 --> 00:30:21,300
before deciding whether they should, you know, get an outside council

507
00:30:21,900 --> 00:30:25,820
where we're taking care of their legal function or they should get an in-house

508
00:30:25,820 --> 00:30:30,340
council and, you know, who is in charge of the legal function and everything else.

509
00:30:30,380 --> 00:30:32,700
So because you have worked in startups,

510
00:30:32,700 --> 00:30:35,860
so tell us what are the three things that you say startups should be

511
00:30:35,860 --> 00:30:40,140
absolutely taking care of, which you have found that they usually don't?

512
00:30:40,980 --> 00:30:45,620
Compliances. They just tend to just forget about it for some reason.

513
00:30:45,660 --> 00:30:50,580
I don't understand why, but then later on when it fires up,

514
00:30:50,740 --> 00:30:54,500
it is a lot of work and then automatically

515
00:30:54,500 --> 00:30:58,860
we take costs into consideration three times more the cost that you're doing.

516
00:30:59,340 --> 00:31:04,780
So compliances, yes, you should have also a very thorough SOP

517
00:31:04,780 --> 00:31:08,900
in terms of the risks that you are willing to take as an organization.

518
00:31:09,500 --> 00:31:13,020
OK, other than that, let me see.

519
00:31:13,940 --> 00:31:16,060
I actually have only two points.

520
00:31:16,980 --> 00:31:18,460
I cannot think of any other point.

521
00:31:18,460 --> 00:31:21,260
But yes, if it comes, then I'll let you know.

522
00:31:21,260 --> 00:31:24,780
But yeah, compliances and risk mitigation is something that is,

523
00:31:24,860 --> 00:31:26,340
you know, not even their head.

524
00:31:26,340 --> 00:31:27,420
They just want to do business.

525
00:31:27,420 --> 00:31:29,060
And let's just, you know,

526
00:31:29,060 --> 00:31:31,180
I haven't even got the money yet. What are we going to do?

527
00:31:31,580 --> 00:31:34,900
Exactly. Trust me, I've been on the same boat despite being a lawyer.

528
00:31:35,900 --> 00:31:37,860
But see, that's what I'm saying.

529
00:31:37,860 --> 00:31:39,940
These are not two points, I would say,

530
00:31:39,940 --> 00:31:42,260
because compliance is a very broad category.

531
00:31:42,260 --> 00:31:46,260
So can you go a little more specific as to what kind of compliances

532
00:31:46,540 --> 00:31:50,420
and how can early stage entrepreneurs be more aware of the compliances

533
00:31:50,420 --> 00:31:53,020
that they need to make sure that, you know, they are in compliance with?

534
00:31:53,700 --> 00:31:58,380
So one is basic your secretarial compliances and GST and taxes

535
00:31:58,380 --> 00:31:59,620
and everything like that.

536
00:31:59,620 --> 00:32:03,220
So that probably most of the people must be outsourcing that also.

537
00:32:04,380 --> 00:32:07,740
Then other than that, industry compliance, industry compliance

538
00:32:07,740 --> 00:32:11,340
or whatever industry that you are currently in, you should be aware

539
00:32:11,340 --> 00:32:14,260
about what are the guidelines and the regulation

540
00:32:14,260 --> 00:32:18,060
that there are in the industry, because you may be a startup,

541
00:32:18,340 --> 00:32:20,580
but the industry is consisting of many people.

542
00:32:21,260 --> 00:32:24,060
And you would think that, OK, let's just, you know,

543
00:32:24,540 --> 00:32:26,740
let's just move ahead and then we will follow up.

544
00:32:27,060 --> 00:32:29,220
But industry is not waiting for you.

545
00:32:29,220 --> 00:32:32,700
And the statutory bodies are not waiting for you to catch up with them.

546
00:32:34,060 --> 00:32:36,620
So like industry standards,

547
00:32:36,620 --> 00:32:39,220
you may maintain by looking at, you know, basic guidelines.

548
00:32:39,220 --> 00:32:40,900
Also, I would suggest joining unions.

549
00:32:40,900 --> 00:32:44,260
If there is some sort of, you know, a startup that is infrastructure

550
00:32:44,260 --> 00:32:47,980
based or something like that, everything has a union or say right now, too.

551
00:32:48,780 --> 00:32:53,300
And they give you a very comprehensive guide to how to move forward.

552
00:32:53,460 --> 00:32:56,860
They also give you a very comprehensive guide to, you know, things to do

553
00:32:56,860 --> 00:32:59,380
and not to do, and they are also support to you.

554
00:33:00,060 --> 00:33:04,740
So for an early stage, associations and unions are very good.

555
00:33:05,260 --> 00:33:08,820
Well said. And, you know, especially in Indian context,

556
00:33:08,820 --> 00:33:13,500
where corporate governance has become an issue, especially in the startups.

557
00:33:13,500 --> 00:33:17,620
Right. So I would say that, you know, founders need to pay special care

558
00:33:17,620 --> 00:33:18,620
on this front.

559
00:33:19,100 --> 00:33:22,940
You know, they don't realize the reputation of our startup ecosystem

560
00:33:23,580 --> 00:33:25,900
is at risk on a global scale.

561
00:33:25,900 --> 00:33:29,580
Right. I meet so many lawyers and they come and ask me,

562
00:33:29,580 --> 00:33:32,980
like, why are there so many corporate governance issues in Indian startups?

563
00:33:32,980 --> 00:33:33,180
Right.

564
00:33:33,220 --> 00:33:36,060
And there's no clear answer to that question.

565
00:33:36,420 --> 00:33:39,860
And one thing I would also share from my own experience is that these

566
00:33:39,860 --> 00:33:46,060
non-compliances is a lot of times used by incumbents as a way to stop you.

567
00:33:46,220 --> 00:33:51,860
The moment you become a threat to them, I'm telling you, I've been part

568
00:33:51,860 --> 00:33:56,420
of these conversations is that how can we tie them up in legal issues

569
00:33:56,420 --> 00:33:58,940
so that they can't really challenge us.

570
00:33:58,980 --> 00:34:03,620
So make sure that these things sounds insignificant in the initial days,

571
00:34:03,620 --> 00:34:05,900
but they can really come and bite you in the ass.

572
00:34:06,220 --> 00:34:08,140
So be careful of that.

573
00:34:08,620 --> 00:34:11,980
So, yeah, now this is the rapid fire round type.

574
00:34:11,980 --> 00:34:12,980
Are you ready, lovely?

575
00:34:13,980 --> 00:34:14,980
Okay.

576
00:34:14,980 --> 00:34:15,980
Sure.

577
00:34:15,980 --> 00:34:17,780
So morning person or night owl?

578
00:34:18,580 --> 00:34:19,580
I am a night owl.

579
00:34:21,580 --> 00:34:23,580
Most of the people are.

580
00:34:23,580 --> 00:34:26,860
In our age, I feel like, you know, nobody wants to get in trouble.

581
00:34:26,860 --> 00:34:31,540
Especially if you are living a very corporate life, you don't want a

582
00:34:31,540 --> 00:34:33,980
single minute of control that you have.

583
00:34:33,980 --> 00:34:35,980
So for that reason, a night owl.

584
00:34:36,980 --> 00:34:39,980
Favorite legal thriller book or movie?

585
00:34:40,980 --> 00:34:41,980
I actually do not.

586
00:34:41,980 --> 00:34:44,980
I am a very big fan of thriller books.

587
00:34:44,980 --> 00:34:46,980
I am a very big fan of Afghans.

588
00:34:46,980 --> 00:34:48,980
But I do not read legal thriller.

589
00:34:48,980 --> 00:34:53,980
But there was a movie once I watched, it's called Dark Water.

590
00:34:54,100 --> 00:34:56,100
It has Mark Ruffalo in it.

591
00:34:56,100 --> 00:34:57,100
It's based on a real story.

592
00:34:57,100 --> 00:34:59,100
It is actually really good.

593
00:34:59,100 --> 00:35:00,100
Okay.

594
00:35:01,100 --> 00:35:02,100
Thanks for that recommendation.

595
00:35:02,100 --> 00:35:05,100
I'm in the middle of reading ABC Murders.

596
00:35:06,100 --> 00:35:07,100
I've read it.

597
00:35:07,100 --> 00:35:08,100
Should I?

598
00:35:08,100 --> 00:35:09,100
Should I?

599
00:35:09,100 --> 00:35:10,100
Don't spoil it for me.

600
00:35:10,100 --> 00:35:13,100
I'm not reading it.

601
00:35:13,100 --> 00:35:16,100
If you could have dinner with.

602
00:35:16,100 --> 00:35:17,100
No, it's fine.

603
00:35:17,100 --> 00:35:20,860
So the next question is, if you could have dinner with any historical

604
00:35:20,940 --> 00:35:23,940
figure, who would it be?

605
00:35:23,940 --> 00:35:26,940
It would be Diogenes.

606
00:35:26,940 --> 00:35:28,940
He's my favorite philosopher.

607
00:35:28,940 --> 00:35:33,940
And I am very much into philosophy.

608
00:35:33,940 --> 00:35:37,940
When I look into the historical figures, I would not look into people who

609
00:35:37,940 --> 00:35:39,940
are more akin to war and everything.

610
00:35:39,940 --> 00:35:44,940
I would look for philosophy because at that time, thinking, just the sheer

611
00:35:44,940 --> 00:35:47,940
thought of thinking was at its peak.

612
00:35:48,020 --> 00:35:51,020
And there was an Indian philosopher.

613
00:35:51,020 --> 00:35:55,020
He is actually the father of Indian philosophy for logic and reasoning.

614
00:35:55,020 --> 00:35:58,020
His name is Gautama.

615
00:35:58,020 --> 00:36:01,020
So he wrote Nyaya Sutra.

616
00:36:01,020 --> 00:36:06,020
Actually, the Nyaya Sutras were written by an unknown person, but he actually

617
00:36:06,020 --> 00:36:07,020
wrote it.

618
00:36:07,020 --> 00:36:12,020
He gave it its name and he had many disciples.

619
00:36:12,020 --> 00:36:15,020
So yeah, one of those.

620
00:36:15,020 --> 00:36:16,020
Very interesting.

621
00:36:16,100 --> 00:36:19,100
Very interesting.

622
00:36:19,100 --> 00:36:23,100
Next question is, what legal myth you would like to debunk?

623
00:36:23,100 --> 00:36:30,100
Since we already talked about monotony, you will not be swimming in the pools

624
00:36:30,100 --> 00:36:33,100
of money if you are a lawyer.

625
00:36:33,100 --> 00:36:35,100
Not necessarily.

626
00:36:35,100 --> 00:36:40,100
One is that a person would want to be argumentated in life.

627
00:36:40,100 --> 00:36:45,100
Some people just necessarily do not like arguments.

628
00:36:45,180 --> 00:36:46,180
Right.

629
00:36:46,180 --> 00:36:50,180
So the legal myth you are trying to debunk is that if you are argumentative in life,

630
00:36:50,180 --> 00:36:53,180
don't just go and become a lawyer.

631
00:36:53,180 --> 00:37:00,180
That and if you are a lawyer, you may necessarily not be argumentative in life.

632
00:37:00,180 --> 00:37:01,180
Yeah.

633
00:37:01,180 --> 00:37:04,180
Especially if you are a corporate lawyer.

634
00:37:04,180 --> 00:37:05,180
Yeah.

635
00:37:05,180 --> 00:37:06,180
Okay.

636
00:37:06,180 --> 00:37:07,180
Last question.

637
00:37:07,180 --> 00:37:08,180
Coffee or tea?

638
00:37:08,180 --> 00:37:09,180
Tea all the time.

639
00:37:09,180 --> 00:37:10,180
Okay.

640
00:37:10,180 --> 00:37:11,180
Interesting.

641
00:37:11,260 --> 00:37:16,260
So I am now going to ask the last question of the podcast.

642
00:37:16,260 --> 00:37:21,260
Let's talk about the buzzword these days, generative AI, chat, GPT.

643
00:37:21,260 --> 00:37:24,260
What are your thoughts on that?

644
00:37:24,260 --> 00:37:29,260
How can we leverage these technologies to make legal functions better?

645
00:37:29,260 --> 00:37:32,260
So recently I went to a conference.

646
00:37:32,260 --> 00:37:37,260
It was in relation to the new TPTP Act that came in.

647
00:37:37,340 --> 00:37:44,340
And I met a few people who were selling contract management software.

648
00:37:44,340 --> 00:37:48,340
So you can see that AI is already there.

649
00:37:48,340 --> 00:37:52,340
In your contract management, at least from my perspective, in your contract management,

650
00:37:52,340 --> 00:37:53,340
AI is already there.

651
00:37:53,340 --> 00:37:54,340
They are giving you suggestions.

652
00:37:54,340 --> 00:37:57,340
They are giving you a template for agreements.

653
00:37:57,340 --> 00:37:59,340
They are giving you clauses.

654
00:37:59,340 --> 00:38:04,340
And, you know, they are also giving you, okay, you have agreed to this clause in that agreement.

655
00:38:04,420 --> 00:38:07,420
But right now you are not agreeing to it.

656
00:38:07,420 --> 00:38:08,420
What is the reason?

657
00:38:08,420 --> 00:38:09,420
Do you want to agree to it?

658
00:38:09,420 --> 00:38:10,420
Are you sure?

659
00:38:10,420 --> 00:38:15,420
Like that Google suggestion that once came, that are you sure to want to send this email

660
00:38:15,420 --> 00:38:16,420
without an attachment?

661
00:38:16,420 --> 00:38:19,420
So it's sort of those things that's already been happening.

662
00:38:19,420 --> 00:38:24,420
And pretty much so in like any other industry and legal industry as well.

663
00:38:24,420 --> 00:38:27,420
And we have just to keep up with it.

664
00:38:27,420 --> 00:38:31,420
And like, you know, when the computer came and everybody thought that their jobs would

665
00:38:31,500 --> 00:38:35,500
be lost, still are using computers as their buddies.

666
00:38:35,500 --> 00:38:38,500
So AI is here to stay.

667
00:38:38,500 --> 00:38:45,500
But I recently heard, I don't remember the name of the person who I heard from.

668
00:38:45,500 --> 00:38:47,500
So they were talking about a color theory.

669
00:38:47,500 --> 00:38:52,500
Let's say you have a person who is very intelligent, a genius of thought.

670
00:38:52,500 --> 00:38:53,500
Okay.

671
00:38:53,500 --> 00:38:59,500
And from a very young age, you get them in a box, like in, you know, in a box, which

672
00:38:59,500 --> 00:39:00,500
is completely black and white.

673
00:39:00,580 --> 00:39:02,580
And you are teaching them colors.

674
00:39:02,580 --> 00:39:07,580
You're teaching them how colors work and what is like, you know, whatever the scientific

675
00:39:07,580 --> 00:39:09,580
way of talking is.

676
00:39:09,580 --> 00:39:11,580
So everything about colors.

677
00:39:11,580 --> 00:39:12,580
Okay.

678
00:39:12,580 --> 00:39:18,580
Now, let's say 40, 50 years later, you bring them out of that room into actually colored

679
00:39:18,580 --> 00:39:19,580
world.

680
00:39:19,580 --> 00:39:25,580
And then what your perception is, whether their experience related to color would change

681
00:39:25,660 --> 00:39:29,660
or would it remain the same because they have listened to the theory.

682
00:39:29,660 --> 00:39:31,660
They have learned everything about it.

683
00:39:31,660 --> 00:39:33,660
So that's the same thing with AI.

684
00:39:33,660 --> 00:39:40,660
You can feed it with information, but the actual experience and the actual way of using

685
00:39:40,660 --> 00:39:42,660
that information comes from experience.

686
00:39:42,660 --> 00:39:44,660
You know what?

687
00:39:44,660 --> 00:39:47,660
So human intervention is still very much required.

688
00:39:47,660 --> 00:39:54,660
You cannot rely on AI to make your contracts because your company or the clients who have

689
00:39:54,740 --> 00:39:56,740
hired you have not hired the AI.

690
00:39:56,740 --> 00:40:00,740
They hired you and everything that's going to come, it's going to come to you, not the

691
00:40:00,740 --> 00:40:01,740
AI.

692
00:40:01,740 --> 00:40:03,740
So yeah, I mean, you can use it.

693
00:40:03,740 --> 00:40:06,740
You can, you can seek assistance from it.

694
00:40:06,740 --> 00:40:12,740
You can look into some sort of automation in terms of, you know, renewals contracts

695
00:40:12,740 --> 00:40:16,740
or compliances of that sort or case summaries like that.

696
00:40:16,740 --> 00:40:19,740
But human intervention still is very much required.

697
00:40:19,740 --> 00:40:20,740
Well said.

698
00:40:20,740 --> 00:40:22,740
I completely agree.

699
00:40:22,820 --> 00:40:27,820
But, you know, the age of AI is bringing their whole set of legal challenges, right?

700
00:40:27,820 --> 00:40:30,820
So, you know, confidentiality issue.

701
00:40:30,820 --> 00:40:32,820
Are you, you know, not sharing?

702
00:40:32,820 --> 00:40:34,820
Are you complying with the relevant regulations?

703
00:40:34,820 --> 00:40:39,820
Like, you know, because these days, every company have an AI component to their product

704
00:40:39,820 --> 00:40:40,820
or service, right?

705
00:40:40,820 --> 00:40:45,820
Now they are going to be different statutes that's going to come in, right?

706
00:40:45,820 --> 00:40:48,820
And they will have their own compliance issues, right?

707
00:40:48,820 --> 00:40:50,820
But it's also bringing some of the unique problems.

708
00:40:50,900 --> 00:40:54,900
Like I tell you, I'm part of a startup called AI Monitor, right?

709
00:40:54,900 --> 00:40:57,900
And the domain is getaimonitor.com.

710
00:40:57,900 --> 00:41:00,900
Shameless plug, right?

711
00:41:01,900 --> 00:41:05,900
So the problem that we are trying to solve, and this is a problem I have faced myself

712
00:41:05,900 --> 00:41:08,900
as well, is that, so I'll give you a recent example.

713
00:41:08,900 --> 00:41:10,900
So we are helping a brand.

714
00:41:10,900 --> 00:41:11,900
Their name crops up.

715
00:41:11,900 --> 00:41:16,900
When you say, what is the worst brand to cook biryani?

716
00:41:16,980 --> 00:41:21,980
So now what is, if a person is searching, like, what is the worst brand to cook biryani?

717
00:41:21,980 --> 00:41:23,980
Their name is popping up, right?

718
00:41:23,980 --> 00:41:26,980
And as you may imagine, they are not happy.

719
00:41:26,980 --> 00:41:27,980
Right?

720
00:41:27,980 --> 00:41:28,980
Oh, yeah.

721
00:41:28,980 --> 00:41:31,980
So and now we are kind of helping them out to correct that.

722
00:41:31,980 --> 00:41:33,980
So this is the problem, essentially, right?

723
00:41:33,980 --> 00:41:35,980
And on the other side of the point, right?

724
00:41:35,980 --> 00:41:39,980
So, for example, like, you know, you are working for Quest Retail, right?

725
00:41:39,980 --> 00:41:44,980
If somebody searches what is the best retail product company in this particular category,

726
00:41:45,060 --> 00:41:48,060
you would ideally want to be there, right?

727
00:41:48,060 --> 00:41:53,060
So how does these kind of unique problems, like, you know, with the use of AI?

728
00:41:53,060 --> 00:41:59,060
So my question is, have you encountered or seen any interesting use case or an interesting

729
00:41:59,060 --> 00:42:04,060
problem that has cropped up because now everybody is using AI?

730
00:42:04,060 --> 00:42:06,060
Not necessarily.

731
00:42:06,060 --> 00:42:11,060
I mean, in my day-to-day life, the biggest issue that I've faced is that some people

732
00:42:11,140 --> 00:42:16,140
in my department are using AI to draft their whole agreement.

733
00:42:16,140 --> 00:42:21,140
So that has been an issue, but like not that big of an issue that you are speaking of.

734
00:42:21,140 --> 00:42:26,140
But regardless of that, I would recommend that, you know, the normal any any company

735
00:42:30,140 --> 00:42:35,140
when they are going forward, their advertisements and the kind of data that they are feeding

736
00:42:35,140 --> 00:42:37,140
into their AI really matters a lot.

737
00:42:37,220 --> 00:42:42,220
So you have to have that sort of a backup, okay, where you got this data, like, you know,

738
00:42:42,220 --> 00:42:43,220
for the worst biryani possible.

739
00:42:43,220 --> 00:42:44,220
Okay.

740
00:42:44,220 --> 00:42:45,220
But where you got this data?

741
00:42:45,220 --> 00:42:48,220
We have gotten this from the Google reviews for so and so many people.

742
00:42:48,220 --> 00:42:53,220
So that sort of, like, you know, so where you're getting your data is very much important

743
00:42:53,220 --> 00:42:59,220
and how your AI is able to process the data is also very much important.

744
00:42:59,220 --> 00:43:05,220
In my day-to-day life, right now, till now, nothing of the sort has happened because we

745
00:43:05,300 --> 00:43:07,300
are not using any AI.

746
00:43:07,300 --> 00:43:12,300
We are not also using any sort of a software, at least in the legal department.

747
00:43:12,300 --> 00:43:17,300
So I believe that was not the question for me to answer.

748
00:43:17,300 --> 00:43:19,300
No, that kind of makes sense.

749
00:43:19,300 --> 00:43:21,300
And, you know, you spoke about marketing.

750
00:43:21,300 --> 00:43:26,300
So one of the interesting observations that I have made over the past year that marketing

751
00:43:26,300 --> 00:43:29,300
used to feel that there is no compliance, they need to wait, right?

752
00:43:29,300 --> 00:43:31,300
Because they're just selling stuff, right?

753
00:43:31,300 --> 00:43:33,300
But that's not the case anymore.

754
00:43:33,380 --> 00:43:38,380
Especially with the GDPR and, you know, now, almost every company dealing with international

755
00:43:38,380 --> 00:43:39,380
clients.

756
00:43:39,380 --> 00:43:45,380
So there's a new subset of specialization popping up, which is called marketing compliance.

757
00:43:45,380 --> 00:43:47,380
And a lot of people are kind of specializing that.

758
00:43:47,380 --> 00:43:52,380
And a lot of companies, especially in the SaaS sector, have a dedicated function for

759
00:43:52,380 --> 00:43:53,380
this.

760
00:43:53,380 --> 00:43:57,380
So just wanted to let everyone know that, you know, where you get your data from is

761
00:43:57,380 --> 00:43:58,380
really important.

762
00:43:58,460 --> 00:44:01,460
And sometimes it can really haunt you.

763
00:44:01,460 --> 00:44:07,460
Because there was a complaint filed against one of the friends I have in Europe and they

764
00:44:07,460 --> 00:44:12,460
have to really apologize to the guy because they have sent him an email without taking

765
00:44:12,460 --> 00:44:13,460
the permission for that.

766
00:44:13,460 --> 00:44:15,460
They can actually send them an email.

767
00:44:15,460 --> 00:44:17,460
It's like four or five years back.

768
00:44:17,460 --> 00:44:22,460
It was like just after GDPR came in and they were looking at the millions of dollars of

769
00:44:22,460 --> 00:44:27,460
fine if the case would have been prosecuted further by that person.

770
00:44:27,540 --> 00:44:30,540
So marketing departments also need to be careful.

771
00:44:30,540 --> 00:44:37,540
With the upcoming law, like, you know, once we have the rules and regulations for DPP,

772
00:44:37,540 --> 00:44:43,540
the same sort of fine we are looking at, like, you know, 250 crores is not a small amount

773
00:44:43,540 --> 00:44:47,540
of money for a company that is supposedly a data fiduciary, but actually does not have

774
00:44:47,540 --> 00:44:48,540
any assets.

775
00:44:48,540 --> 00:44:51,540
So that is actually very difficult.

776
00:44:51,540 --> 00:44:54,540
And I have seen this in my organization as well.

777
00:44:54,620 --> 00:44:57,620
Obviously for confidentiality reason, I cannot disclose that.

778
00:44:57,620 --> 00:44:59,620
But this is a very big issue.

779
00:44:59,620 --> 00:45:05,620
Other than that, ASCII is also a very strong organization.

780
00:45:05,620 --> 00:45:07,620
It's an upcoming organization.

781
00:45:07,620 --> 00:45:11,620
It talks about the advertisement related guidelines that are there.

782
00:45:11,620 --> 00:45:18,620
And it's in very much force to be whatever the labeling that you are putting in, whatever

783
00:45:18,700 --> 00:45:25,700
the products that you are selling and whether it is actually complying with the advertisement

784
00:45:25,700 --> 00:45:31,700
that you are making is looked at from a very thorough manner.

785
00:45:31,700 --> 00:45:36,700
So that is something that one needs to look into.

786
00:45:36,700 --> 00:45:37,700
Well said, lovely.

787
00:45:37,700 --> 00:45:40,700
And so thanks again for coming on the podcast and sharing your thoughts.

788
00:45:40,700 --> 00:45:44,700
It was really interesting and inspiring to hear your side of story.

789
00:45:44,700 --> 00:45:45,700
Yeah, thank you very much.

790
00:45:45,700 --> 00:45:47,700
It was like, you know, lovely to speak.

791
00:45:47,780 --> 00:45:51,780
Actually, I did not like, you know, we have talked for one hour.

792
00:45:51,780 --> 00:45:53,780
I could not see where the time went.

793
00:45:53,780 --> 00:45:54,780
So, yeah.

794
00:45:55,780 --> 00:45:56,780
Thanks again.

795
00:45:57,780 --> 00:46:00,780
What an interesting conversation we had today with Lovleen.

796
00:46:00,780 --> 00:46:06,780
Don't forget to subscribe to LexDiscuss Cafe for more inspiring stories and expert

797
00:46:06,780 --> 00:46:09,780
insights from the world of law and beyond.

798
00:46:09,780 --> 00:46:12,780
Thank you to our listeners for joining us.

799
00:46:12,780 --> 00:46:16,780
And until the next time, this is your host, Avinash Tripathi, signing off.

800
00:46:16,860 --> 00:46:20,860
In the end, I'll just say stay caffeinated, stay curious.

801
00:46:20,860 --> 00:46:22,860
See you in the next episode.