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Welcome back, our dedicated listeners.

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Today, we are diving into the fascinating world of law and technology with one of the

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nicest people I have ever met, Mr. Biswarup Ghosh.

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He is an engineer and an IITian, but with a twist.

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He actually pursued law from Rajiv Gandhi School of Intellectual Property Law at IIT

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Kharagpur.

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As usual, this podcast is also divided into two parts.

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In the first part, Biswarup shares his experiences at IIT Kharagpur and his thoughts on the biggest

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challenges faced by in-house counsels today.

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Will also try to damage his professional reputation by making him answer a very silly

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question which is as to whether lawyers at tech companies should have a special dress

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code.

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To kick off things, Biswarup, do you want to introduce yourself to our listeners?

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Thank you very much, Avi.

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Now for the listeners, I am Biswarup.

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I am a legal counsel with Cambium Networks.

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I am an engineer turned lawyer.

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I have been working in a few of the very large technology companies so far as part of my

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portfolio that I have built so far.

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So what has happened is I have started working in the area of IP, intellectual property.

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From there, I used to work for a large US MNC called Honeywell.

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From there on, I then moved on to work for an Indian MNC called Fractal Analytics.

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From there, I would go on to work in the area of I would take care of contracting.

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I would get introduced into the world of privacy and of course, IP stayed with me.

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Then I went on to expand a bit.

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I would actually get into India as an advisory short of work.

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And then I moved to Cambium Networks where I am right now.

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With Cambium Networks, I am kind of the partner to the business for Asia Pacific, taking care

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of all the sort of legal requirements that come up in this region.

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That's one.

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I am responsible for the IP portfolio management for this organization as well as a couple

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of other projects on privacy and wherever there is a product which is being released

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by Cambium Networks.

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So I am the legal counsel who is taking care of the regulatory requirements as well as

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any of the requirements that are to be taken care of when that product releases into the

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market.

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So that's on the professional side.

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On the personal side, I am a huge fan of music and I play a little bit of percussion instruments

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and I have been trying to learn as much as I can and occasionally play in front of the

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public.

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Not too much.

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And I have recently been blessed with a baby boy.

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Wow.

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So he's the one who kind of takes a lot of my attention beyond work.

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So what is percussion instruments?

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I'm sorry, I am not aware of it.

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So think of a tabla or think of a bongo.

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This is what will be considered as a percussion instrument.

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These are the kind of things I essentially can play a little bit of tabla.

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I do play a little bit of djembe.

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I play a little bit of bongo.

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So yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

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I'm really happy to hear that.

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I don't have a lot of regrets in my life, just one, that I didn't learn a musical instrument.

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So I'm happy that you didn't do the same mistake.

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I'm sure you and your young kid can now play their musical instruments together.

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That would be an amazing experience.

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Like one of the few people, right, who have still listed on their LinkedIn profile, because

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I was looking at your LinkedIn profile before this interview, who has still listed what

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they did in their law college.

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So I'm going to, right, I'm going to ask you, like, how was your experience in pursuing

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law from IIT Kharagpur, because it has a completely different vibe and it's not meant for law,

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right?

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So how was your experience pursuing law from IIT Kharagpur?

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IIT Kharagpur law, I would say it's a very unique experience.

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The IIT Kharagpur has unique advantage.

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Law is one of the departments of IIT Kharagpur.

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It places any of the department and any of the people studying in any of these departments

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among various other people who are essentially studying something different, right?

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So there are people who would be pursuing their B.Tech in different engineering branches.

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There would be again people who would be doing their M.Techs.

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Then there would be people who would be doing their MBAs, then MHRM.

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So IIT Kharagpur has a variety of courses that are offered over there.

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One thing that I always remember very fondly from my IIT Kharagpur experience was, first

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of all, the professors were absolutely amazing.

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If I have to imagine a really world-class sort of education experience, then IIT Kharagpur

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is one.

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The reason is we would have professors who have actually been there and done that.

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So therefore hearing those kind of things during our courses was one of its kind experience.

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That was on the learning side.

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Then on the other pieces, we would continuously be motivated and we would continuously be

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working with a few of our alumni, a few of our seniors, and then juniors as well.

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So these people have gone ahead and done again amazing stuff in their career and not

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just being a lawyer.

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So they would have done different types of things in their career.

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So hearing from them and then having a role model right in front of you, it sets you out

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right at the beginning of the career.

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And then additionally, what would happen is, since I mentioned that we would have B.Techs,

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M.Techs, and all of those people, PhDs, so there are opportunities to go ahead and build

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a startup.

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I happened to create one while I was at IIT Kharagpur.

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I mean, very interesting sort of ideas will be bounced upon.

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So we would have people from these various different kind of branches coming together

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and trying to create something, solving a problem.

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At that point of time, I got an opportunity to work with people who were doing their PhDs,

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then a couple of people from the B.Techs, and we came together and wanted to design

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a product for management of the waste.

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That was one of its kind experience for me because then you get into the world of business,

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you get to see the nitty gritties of it, and immediately there would be fundings available

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from IIT Kharagpur itself, and then there would be fundings available from alumnus,

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etc.

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All in all, it's a wholesome experience.

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In fact, I got multiple opportunities to go out and participate into moot court competitions

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at that point of time.

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I would write papers, I mean, one of my papers actually became a best-touring paper in conference

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in Auro University, Surat.

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So I had actually got an opportunity to travel across India while I was at India.

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I had traveled to Bhopal, I had traveled to Surat, I had traveled to Tiruvananthapuram.

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When I look back, all these experiences kind of shape the world view of young chap who

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is basically going to get out in the market and want to, you know, make their mark.

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All in all, it was a fascinating experience.

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I mean, if I were to given an opportunity and go back into those three years and then

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spend again, I would do it any day.

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Couldn't agree more the opinion that you hold about the college, right, going back and living

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those years, I think a lot of us also have the same opinion about our alma mater.

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Law at IIT Kharagpur has a lot of advantages, but, you know, one of the negative points

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that I get to hear from some people is that, you know, kind of forces you to specialize

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in IP.

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What are your thoughts on that?

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You know, Avi, I mean, we can't hear enough of it.

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I would essentially see it as a mixed bag sort of an experience in the sense what happens

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is the law school was built with an intention to create professionals who are from engineering,

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science, and say some of them from medical professionals and coming and studying law

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to become IP professional.

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Over the period of time, the law school has evolved and then the overall, the courses,

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the course curriculum, how it at least used to happen at that point of time would introduce

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us into this various different other areas of law.

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Now, having said that, if the question is, is it easier to break into the IP as a profession

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from IIT Kharagpur Law School?

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Yes, it does, because it has got an immediate recognition in this particular area.

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But also having said that, does it mean that the students get limited to only pursuing

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IP as a profession?

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No, it doesn't.

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I mean, it is pretty much evident from quite a few of us who have actually ventured outside

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of IP.

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I work in a generalist role within the organization at this point of time, and there are a few

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of us who have ventured into litigation, a few of us in fact have moved into policy work

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as well.

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What happens is once we are into the profession, the technology bent of the mind and as well

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as the analytical skills that we would have gathered, that comes into being and helps

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us in moving into some other space.

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So yes, I mean, like I said, I mean, it's a mixed bag.

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If someone were to come out of the IIT Kharagpur Law School and want to get started somewhere,

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IP is definitely still, I would say, the biggest place to get started with.

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But then, yes, the opportunities in other places are absolutely immense.

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Absolutely.

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So let's start with a fun question.

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Do you think that lawyers at tech companies should have a special dress code?

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If yes, then what should it be?

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Well, that's such a nice question, Avi.

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I mean, what I do within a tech company is sitting with my engineers and working as a

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bridge between what this complicated law, regulation, statutes, all of this, and what

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essentially makes sense for my company, for my engineers.

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Now one part of it is that, I mean, any engineer would find it really, I would say, stifling

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if they were speaking with someone who doesn't speak in their language, who doesn't at least

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to a certain extent look like them, to a certain extent do not feel what they are essentially

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trying to bring to the table.

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Now, if I think of a dress code, a dress code is essentially a mechanism of bringing uniformity.

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Now, within a tech company, I mean, my engineers are breaking barriers.

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They are innovating.

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They are creating something new out of something which was not existent till yesterday.

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So therefore, I prefer to look slightly like them.

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And if I want to think and be a Manish Malhotra for a tech company lawyer, so I would essentially

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go with, say, short with, say, a shirt, but still with a tie, right?

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Maintain the flavor, but the dish will look a little different.

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So that's my take.

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Great answer there.

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And you know, one of the reasons that we kind of like you approach to because, you know,

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you had this interesting profile that you are an engineer ventured into law.

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So what was your motivation there?

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Most my engineering, I had in fact, at that point of time, had joined in a very large

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Indian MNC as a graduate engineer trainee.

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And even while pursuing my engineering, I had gone ahead and done certain trainings

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with very large power sector companies and so on and so forth.

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So while working over there and while being on the floor at that age, of course, I mean,

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you can only know so much.

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I will be pulling myself if I would say that I had a complete clarity of mind at that

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age and know what I am going to do in my 30s, in my 40s, so on and so forth.

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But at that point, I felt I need to get into something which is going to keep me interested

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at least for 10 years, right?

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Something which is going to keep me motivated.

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I see a career path I flourish.

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And of course, I see a little bit of success while doing all of this.

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So now when figuring out all of this, I realized that MBA is definitely not my cup of tea then

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at that point of time, which is a very normal progression from being an engineer to doing

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an MBA and getting into big management profiles.

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Of course, I went ahead and met a couple of different people who have pursued law.

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And then I stumbled upon some people who have done law out of IIT Kharagpur, this particular

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law school.

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And I really liked their journey.

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Even in those few years that they had gone out of college, the kind of things that they

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were able to do, the immediate impact that they were creating, I was hoping to go exactly

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the same after I would have come out of the college.

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So that was a prime motivation.

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I mean, not continue to do what is not going to keep me interested for a long time.

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And when I pursue something else, I land up somewhere where there are some interesting

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stuff going on.

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That's what brought me here.

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Wow, such a courageous decision, I must say.

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Now let me start with your easy question.

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The question is, what is the biggest challenge that you face as an in-house counsel?

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Well, this is the first time that you have got me thinking a little bit.

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Avi, I mean, as an in-house counsel, we are essentially continuously trying to figure

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out this is a global world that we are living in.

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The company goes ahead and sells in multiple countries.

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It comes down to us to figure out what are those kind of regulatory challenges, which

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the company is likely to face when they want to enter into business in each of these countries.

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And when I say enter into business, I need to say right from the time when the company

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wants to set up a shop, say in a new country where it wants to get in, then want to hire

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some people out of those countries, then goes ahead and figures out how does it say manufacture

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certain product if it were to manufacture in those countries.

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And in case it doesn't manufacture in those countries, so then how does the company move

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products from other countries into those countries and then figuring out how do we

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navigate through the regulatory pieces, approvals, licenses, these are required to sell into

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those countries.

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Now, the biggest challenge that I face today is to keep tap of this very dynamically changing

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landscape which is happening all around us.

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A simple example to take will be, say, the way the privacy works.

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Every other day, there is a new privacy regulation that comes up and then there are some very

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country-specific requirements which come into being.

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Now, as a lawyer, it is our responsibility to adequately advise the internal customers

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so that there are no apparent legal issues, you know, which does not arise because the

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product is being sold in those countries.

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So if I were to categorize on a 30,000 feet level, what would have made my life a little

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easier?

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It would be to have on the top of my palm something which will help me navigate each

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of these complexities, which are very country-specific.

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That's how it is.

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Biswarup, my follow-up question would be, like, how do you keep track of all the regulations?

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And as an in-house counsel, how do you understand that, you know, certain things have come into

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the picture?

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For instance, some of your software is using open source software.

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If that's the case, you'll have to have certain different type of IP clause in the end user

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agreement.

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So how do you keep track of things?

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It's interesting that you talked about open source.

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What I'll do is I'll just break it up into two questions.

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One is how do we keep track of what are these kind of regulatory changes and then go specific

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into what we do with respect to open source.

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Keeping track of these kind of changes, essentially the strategies that we take, number one, of

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course, we keep on reading.

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It might seem very simple, simplistic, but then it always works.

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So if there is a country of interest where we have to get in, we would have broken down

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into what are the kind of areas that we need to understand.

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We essentially keep on reading.

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There are these doing business in guides which are available.

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Some of the largest law firms out there, they essentially publish these kind of guides.

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So that keeps us updated on what is going to come up, what is happening, what are the

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kind of requirements, what are the changes which have come up and what is going to come

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up next.

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So that's the first thing.

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The second thing is we continue to keep good relationship with various law firms which

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are there in that particular country, because even if I were to understand theoretically

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each of these regulations which would have come up, but the nuances might actually determine

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how that will be functioned.

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So that is the second thing.

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So we essentially build relationships.

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I mean, that's why it is absolutely important for us in-house councils to also go ahead

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and continuously meet people who understand how they have perceived, they have understood

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because.

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We really can't be always aware or always ready with those kind of aspects.

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That is the second bit.

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And the third bit is, of course, whenever we have understood that there is some part

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of it that we are anticipating or some part of it is going to come up, we put it down

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into a process because as soon as we have built certain processes around it, the chances

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of us missing some nuances go down drastically.

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Now here I'm going to talk to you about what do we do with respect to open source.

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Now open source is a very dynamic area where there are these tons of developments which

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keep on happening.

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Today we have a certain number of, say, open source software which is getting utilized.

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Tomorrow there would be new open source software which will come up.

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So what we do is we set up a process within the organization.

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And I'm talking very generally right now.

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The organization would go ahead and have at the point where a software is going to go

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to production.

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Right before that, we will essentially start a scanning of the software.

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The scanning of the software, either it would be a third party tool or it would be even

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internally developed tool, which goes ahead and scans the complete code against any of

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these kinds of open source which it can hit up.

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So when we have scanned, now some of these open source software that we encounter after

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the scan has happened, we would have encountered already.

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So we know what are the kind of challenges.

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Is it under a license, which is copyleaf?

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If it is under a license where we can easily integrate it with the proprietary software,

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so on and so forth.

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And then therein we actually come across some of the software where say a new type

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of licenses would happen.

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So that flows into our workflow for approval of those kind of.

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So essentially now we go into those kind of licenses, we figure out what are these challenges

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which are there with these licenses, what are the risks with this open source software.

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And then there is an approve or reject sort of a mechanism or sometimes we work with the

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engineers to enable them to comply with the licenses and then we move ahead.

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I just wanted to give you a flavor of what happens.

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I mean, we will continue to track the open source.

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Sometimes we know it, sometimes there's something which we encounter.

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And since we have put it down in the process, the chances are we are not going to miss something

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which is.

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No, I have two follow up questions actually to that.

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The first follow up question is to the first statement when you said about building relationship

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with the law firms and the external legal service providers, right?

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So I have a controversial question there.

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There's this one school of thought which says that people who have earlier done litigation

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and have worked in a law firm and then they become a corporate in-house counsel, they

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tend to perform better.

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Then there's another school of thought who says that, you know, that's not the case.

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If somebody has been a corporate legal counsel in one particular industry, like say like

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electronics, right?

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If he has an experience in that, those kind of people tend to perform a lot better.

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So that's my first follow up question.

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What are your two cents on that?

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I know you belong to the latter group, right?

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That's why I'm trying to, I'm trying to, I mean, I'm trying to be a little neutral about

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it because.

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I mean, I cannot be absolutely neutral about it because I really am in the later group.

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I have actually worked and I have very closely interacted with people of the first group

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as well who have moved from the traditional practice or sometimes law firms and then they

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have moved into in-house and then they have been very successful in their in-house job.

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And of course, I mean, there are this second group as well, which has been immensely successful

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in their in-house job.

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Absolutely.

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Now fundamentally, there is a difference between how to say advisory would work when you are

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outside of an organization and you are essentially advising that organization, especially for

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contentious issues and versus when you are inside an organization and you are mostly

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responsible to preempt most of these issues from happening.

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And then in some cases, you also have to handle inadvertently, some contentious issues

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have happened.

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Now what happens is that in both of these, a person who is ready to put in their cards,

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the success is guaranteed.

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So there is no doubt about it.

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The question is what increases the probability of anyone who is in any of these groups to

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become successful.

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Now in the first group, what happens is that people generally tend to identify the legal

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issues really quickly by practice, by having done that again and again and again.

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So that comes very naturally to them.

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But when required to translate it into a business action, they need to build up.

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When I said that someone who is ready to put in that hard work, this is where they are

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essentially putting in the hard work and the number of hours that they need.

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On the second group, on the contrary, since we are born with the business, so therefore

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it automatically comes in the understanding of our business work.

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What are the kind of nitty gritties with respect to the business?

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What is going to work with my HR team versus what is not going to work with my finance

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team?

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But then identifying all the legal issues is something which has to come at this snap

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of the finger.

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And that's what it makes a good in-house councel.

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So I would like to end my statement with a statement from John Verinati.

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I used to look up to him while I was at Honeywell.

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So he would say that, see, you have to be able to identify the issues very quickly.

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You have to have that knack of identifying where the issue lies.

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And then after that, you have to start thinking, you know, wearing the hat of a business.

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In some cases, you mitigate.

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In some cases, you fight.

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In some cases, you leave it as it is.

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It doesn't mean that you haven't taken an action.

355
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You have to still take an action.

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But that is where you have to figure out how you do that.

357
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And if you are able to do both properly, you have been successful.

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And that's what I have been following.

359
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And, you know, I hope to continue to build my overall expertise around this.

360
00:22:12,900 --> 00:22:14,580
Wow, great thoughts.

361
00:22:14,580 --> 00:22:15,900
But you haven't given the answer.

362
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Who are more likely to succeed?

363
00:22:17,700 --> 00:22:21,380
Well, you have given a very diplomatic answer here.

364
00:22:21,380 --> 00:22:22,380
Let's be honest.

365
00:22:22,380 --> 00:22:28,240
Well, I was trying to give you a mathematical answer, which became diplomatic.

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So my mathematical answer is that if it is x where you already have the legal skills,

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you know how to read the law and you can build in that y where, you know, you know the business,

368
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which sometimes is evidently lacking because you don't need to do that.

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And on the other end, you essentially know y and you need to build in that x and then

370
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together you are building x plus y plus delta y and you are building x plus y plus delta

371
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x.

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00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:59,720
I know why you are using equations just to confuse a lawyer because you know most lawyers

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are bad with maths.

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You don't want to give the answer.

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So now you have brought in the equations to confuse me, but I'll let it slide.

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I'll let it slide.

377
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,480
So now the second follow up question that I wanted to ask, like, you know, when you

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talked about building a policy and then building a process around it.

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So what are your thoughts on our law colleges actually not even teaching at the 101 on this

380
00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:24,120
level?

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Even the best one will tell you how to draft a policy.

382
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But how do you implement a policy, especially in large organizations?

383
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What are your thoughts on this?

384
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:35,800
See this is the problem.

385
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Before we end up thinking about a solution, we have to recognize that this is a problem.

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And there is a major gap between what we get taught within a law school and what essentially

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translates into practice.

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In my mind, I would not categorize myself as someone who has been extraordinary about

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00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:53,760
it.

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It is a learning curve that I took.

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You start with doing the basic grant work and you keep on building on top of it to the

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extent where you understand what is the bigger picture from where essentially now it comes

393
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,840
in how you manage your stakeholder and then you build in this kind of policies, processes,

394
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whatever we are talking about.

395
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:19,360
Now, unfortunately, a law student who is now coming out is unlikely to even get that opportunity

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to do it right out of the school.

397
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So that is one part.

398
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:28,680
But to your question, is it possible to teach, at least give a flavor of this to a law student?

399
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:29,680
Yes, it is.

400
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,080
I mean, I am a huge fan of law seekho.

401
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,400
What they have been doing in the world of legal education.

402
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:40,040
What they have been able to pull out, they have been able to achieve is immense.

403
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,720
And this is something which I believe there should not be one law seekho.

404
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,680
There should be many of these kind of law school.

405
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,760
And at some point of time, it has to penetrate and it has to become a lot more mainstream

406
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,920
in the sense that it has to have a lot more variations catering to different type of law

407
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:55,920
students.

408
00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:01,000
And when I think about it, we end up generalizing law students or law schools into a one unified

409
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,800
sort of a group, which unfortunately is not the case.

410
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:09,320
I mean, even within our Indian law education system, there are these various different

411
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,840
types of law schools that we keep on seeing.

412
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,880
Some of these law schools inherently are very sophisticated.

413
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:19,480
I mean, you talk about national law school, if you talk about my law school, you talk

414
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,760
about similar kind of law schools, which are, you know, which are there, they're inherently

415
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:25,240
a little bit more sophisticated.

416
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:29,960
The kind of exposure that they get is, I would say, a little bit more than what some other

417
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,840
law schools of the students in those law schools end up getting.

418
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:37,200
But then where they don't get those kind of exposure, the question is essentially bread

419
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:41,520
and butter. So therefore, they are not really bothered with understanding these nuances.

420
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:46,080
They are really figuring out after I do my law education, can I go ahead and start my

421
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,200
practice? Can I go ahead and find a place in a law firm?

422
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,640
Can I go ahead and find a place in a corporate law department?

423
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:58,320
Right. So for them, the question is not to find sophistication right at the beginning,

424
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:00,640
but, you know, to find a place.

425
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:06,320
So for those kind of cases, I really do not think Bridge course or something is actually

426
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,400
sufficient. Yes, but we still have to continue to work towards it.

427
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:15,240
The students, if they start getting exposure right at the law school, working with these

428
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,680
firms, working with these corporates, how does it work?

429
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:19,600
It prepares them well, for sure.

430
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:24,320
But I do not really have any answer as to how, you know, that can be immediately solved.

431
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,640
But yes, one thing that could be done better is to update the courses.

432
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,520
I mean, the kind of thing that are getting taught is extremely important.

433
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,240
But yes, I think that requires some bit of an update.

434
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,880
Right. Because the curriculums are stuck in an era where, you know, you would graduate,

435
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:44,800
you'll join a senior lawyer, like corporate legal councils and the kind of job they end

436
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:49,400
up doing. They need to know a lot of management principles, right, which are like not even

437
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:54,160
touched upon. This is the end of the first part.

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Thanks to our listeners for joining us today.

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See you in the next part.

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As always, stay curious, stay adaptable and never stop learning.