Podcast with Rukmini Sinha, Legal Counsel, Aditya Birla Finance Limited (Part-2)

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Welcome back, dear listeners, to another enlightening episode of LexDiscuss Cafe.

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Today, we are thrilled to continue our conversation with Rukmini Sinha.

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She is an accomplished legal counsel currently at Aditya Birla Finance Limited.

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With a rich background spanning both litigation and non-litigation sectors, Rukmini's expertise

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in digital lending space, compliance, and contract management is invaluable.

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In part one, we delve into her initial journey and experiences in the legal field.

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We also discuss how she transitioned from an LPO to an in-house counsel role.

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Today, we will explore more about her insights into the evolving landscape of law,

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fintech, and technology.

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Hey, Rukmini, welcome back.

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Thanks for coming again on our podcast.

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How was your experience the first time?

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Thanks for having me again.

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And the experience was very nice.

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And I thoroughly enjoyed it.

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And I think I did perform well.

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And that's why I'm here for the second time.

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That's what we have been listening as well.

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Last time, we delved into starting your professional career as a human rights lawyer,

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then making a transition to an LPO, then from that an LPO to as an in-house counsel or legal manager.

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Now, in this podcast, I want to go more deeper into your work as an in-house counsel.

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So my first question is, in your opinion, in your broad experience part,

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what is the most important job of an in-house counsel?

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What is the most important job of an in-house counsel?

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The most important job of an in-house counsel starts with knowing the products,

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line of businesses, and services that the organization is catering to.

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And connecting and networking and having an amicable relationship with different departments

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is very important because only then you get the required cooperation and understanding from people.

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And thirdly, all the laws which are ancillary and incidental to your line of business

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you should have a good knowledge or at least some kind of knowledge wherein you can build further

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on something on those lines.

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And of course, you should have a good communication skill and negotiation power

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because it comes handy a lot of times.

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Your first negotiation is with your internal stakeholders

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and only then with the external stakeholders.

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I mean, one should need to have a very good communication skill

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which is backed by the sound knowledge of the subject matter.

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Wow, let's talk about the buzzword these days, generative AI.

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So my question is how legal departments are adapting to the fact that other than them,

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everybody else is using generative AI as much as they can?

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I think I'm a very traditional kind of a lawyer so I'm pretty satisfied and happy

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that we are not using AI to that effect as it is being used by people in other professions.

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Because see, we are still encountering events or episodes where the law is constantly building,

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developing, changing because, you know, it is said that the law of a particular state

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reflects the kind of the society that we live in.

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So the law is always evolving and changing.

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And we all know and with my limited understanding, you can correct me if I'm wrong,

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the AI is only able to deliver as much as we are able to feed in the intelligence in them.

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And we can only feed in the intelligence in them as much as we have.

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So we don't know exactly what is going to happen five years down the line or ten years down the line.

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And therefore, these AI tools cannot be provided in intelligence with respect to that.

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So in that way, I think for a limited profession,

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AI will not be a very foolproof kind of a solution and I'm pretty happy about it.

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At least I have my job.

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Yeah, see, the thing is, I think any AI tool is not trying to replace lawyers.

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But the fact is, and as you rightly said, that you can't give them the intelligence we already don't have, right?

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Absolutely.

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Where AI tools really excel is, imagine in your case, in your whole lifetime,

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how many contracts can you read?

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Three thousand, four thousand, five thousand, ten thousand maximum.

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An AI tool can do that in five minutes.

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It can read all those five thousand to ten thousand contracts and gather learnings from that.

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And then kind of give it a predictive analysis.

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Okay, this is where, you know, if I have seen hundreds of times when this kind of a clause is written,

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when this kind of a clause is used, there is 30% more chance of.

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Yeah.

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So, yeah.

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No, so as far as the concept of predictability is concerned and, you know,

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thrashing out the unnecessary things or screening it, I agree with you, it can help to some extent.

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But as far as the core legal working is concerned, I think that is something which is irreplaceable.

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Absolutely. And it should be, right?

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At the end of the day, it is the job of the in-house counsel to take the responsibility, right?

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But at the same time, what I obviously noticed is that there are two types of in-house counsel.

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First are overworked and the second was heavily overworked, right?

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So when you have so many things to take care of, I have heard stories where in-house counsels,

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consultation has been sought for drafting simple letters, right?

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So when every other department is pulling legal department in so many ways, right?

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So what I feel is that, you know, the mundane work should be delegated so that

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the human mind is preserved or saved for more strategic work or more high impact issues, right?

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Like a confidentiality clause, even though we heavily debate.

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And in certain cases, it can lead to disastrous efforts.

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But there are certain clauses which are not that important for the contract.

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So why let the human mind be, you know, wasted on such things?

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Okay, so I would say that I partly agree with you, but partly I will have another opinion.

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So the thing is that AI can be handy when, as you said, that we have to just, you know,

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screen or thrash out the details or things which is not essential for a contract.

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But I think somebody once told me that, you know, law is the ordinary prudence of an ordinary man.

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So apart from generating or, you know, feeding the AI tools with the intelligence,

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I think as an in-house council, we are also educating the people in different other departments.

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For a lot of times, the basic work in a draft, which, you know, they can just ordinarily do or

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make, I mean, these people are making an effort to do that.

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And, I mean, it's not just educating the AI, but also educating the people working around you.

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And, I mean, yes, artificial intelligence is being used now in respect of the contract life

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cycle management tools, where basic annotation and, you know, highlighting the clauses which

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has been fed in a certain way with them is helping it out in some way or the other.

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So yeah, I mean, partly I agree that there could be certain work which can be undertaken

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by these tools, depending on what kind of intelligence we feed in them.

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And a remaining can be done by the council. I think it's just a hit and trial method again.

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So we are also evolving, so we should adapt and evolve with the same.

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Absolutely. So, you know, you spoke about training the other people around you.

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So in your experience, what is one thing you want other departments or other people

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around you to know that has been really hard for you to, you know, teach people around you?

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See, I think in a contract, basic things that I would expect my business people or, you know,

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people from other departments to really take care of is the commercials, because we are not

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involved in the commercial discussions. So we really don't know what are the kind of numbers

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that they agree to. So before they actually send us the document, if they can provide us with a

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product note or the points of agreement on a commercial standpoint, so that when we see

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clauses built around that, we don't have to go back and forth to our business people and they

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don't have to come back to us. At one point in time, we can just read it through the note,

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understand it from there and just finish it off and send it to them. So that sort of lessens the

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burden and it also ensures that the drafts can be shared with them in an effective and short term.

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So that is one kind of learning or, you know, understanding I would actually expect and I

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expect from our other counterparts and I always try to ensure that. Second thing is when certain

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basic comments are given, this shouldn't be sounding offending to other department people,

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but a lot of times we are given the reason that this is a legal language we don't understand.

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So I feel that it is very important for people in other departments to get out of that, you know,

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mental understanding or that kind of apprehension that there is something like a legal English.

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We are not pronouncing judgments in privy council and we're not practicing in the king's court.

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Even then, there is nothing called as a legal language. Everything is in plain English.

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If there is anything which is supposed to be very technical from a legal standpoint,

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of course, we are there to help them and to make them understand. But a lot of things which they

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can deal on their own because it's simple language, let's just try not to complicate that by merely

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stating that it's a legal language. I would like to argue on behalf of those people.

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Everything is not in simple language, to be honest. No, no, I agree. I agree. But out of that 100%,

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there would be at least 30% or 35% where you should not be stating that it is legal English.

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I mean, I know people are very scared and apprehensive of touching a legal document because

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of the repercussions that it brings. But slowly and steadily, when we try to educate and build

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that confidence in those people, they should also take the initiative of not quoting them as

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legal English or legal. Absolutely. You know, one of the things that I often hear from in-house

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councils is we can't just remain in the legal silo, right? We have to understand the business

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as well. Absolutely. But I feel I have rarely seen any manager, sales manager,

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or head of other departments who are saying that we can't remain in our silo, right? And we have

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to understand the law as well. I know a lot of salespeople who understand contracts really well,

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but they are in minority. And the problem that you're sharing is very common. In fact, you know,

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one of the tools that I'm working on is called legal front desk for in-house councils because

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a lot of in-house councils have been inundated by trivial and non-consequential legal questions,

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right? So that legal front desk, what it does, it actually filters out those things. So whatever

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is coming in, it will see if it is a minor issue or if it is a little complicated issue. So it will

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filter out those things. It will create an answer and send it to the in-house council or their junior

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for just the final approval. So do you have a look at it? Because even though these questions

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are simple, but every question is different, right? Absolutely. And in order to make other

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people understand about the general law, you have to speak their language. So that's a very

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common problem that we've seen in house councils. And they'll tell you that this is still to a

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lesser extent here in India. If you speak to US councils, their everything is legal, like, you

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know, every law is so much complicated. I know a friend who has been sued. He's a founder of a

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startup. He was interviewing this person. He was sued because he asked too much personal questions,

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right? So this is a very common thing, right? You know, so in India, we are very used to asking,

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right? You know, okay, who is at your home, what is, but in US, you can be sued for these stuff.

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Yeah, because it's a breach of privacy. And I think we are also slowly and steadily

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moving from that. Yeah, yeah, and also a breach of privacy, because you're just trying to

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intrude into the personal space of the person. Right. Moving on to the next question,

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any particular regulation or compliance that is specific to financial industry that you have

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noticed? A lot of compliances and regulations for financial industry. I mean, one of them is a very

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basic one, which is related to outsourcing of financial services by the regulated entities.

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It is a circular by RBI. And I think RBI is very, very aggressively coming out with regulations,

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changes, and actions on various kinds of organizations. So high time for financial

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institutions to be really wary of what they're doing and what they're not doing.

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Absolutely. And you know, financial industry is very important, right? People are sharing so many

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important stuff like their, you know, identity process and number. It's a good thing that RBI

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is pushing for these regulations. And we have been what happened in the Paytm case, right? So

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how can young startups who have a very small team ensure that they're complying with these regulations?

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Absolutely. I mean, at the first place, I would not like to acknowledge or comment on

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whatever happened with any organization. There are different reasons and all that we are able

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to understand in Fathom is what we are reading in news or what we are hearing from people. So

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barring that as a general advice for the startups or any organization for that matter is concerned,

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is that if you are required to be conservative in terms of interpreting a regulation,

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in order to ensure that your credibility or license and your legal existence is maintained,

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it is always better to be prudent and conservative that way. Because just on the basis of expanding

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your business or marking your presence, if you are sort of threatening the very own credibility or

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identity of the organization, then I think all the efforts are going to be redundant. It's of no

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use. So be very conservative if you have to interpret any regulation or law. Wow, great

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advice there. And in your opinion, what is the right time for startups to hire their first lawyer?

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I think, I mean, a lawyer is a very important rather I would in that case, I wouldn't undermine

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any department. So a lawyer should be with the founders right from the inception of the thought

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process. Because a lot of things are precautionary preventive, rather than, you know, dealing with

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the situation when it comes handy. So it is very important that at the very outset, we take all the

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measures, which can ensure that any kind of risk doesn't arise and if it arises, you know, the

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losses or the harm is minimized. Yeah. So that is what it is. Yeah, without taking names, what I'll

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tell you, because, you know, I go to so many startup events, and there's so many people who

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approach me with their startup idea. So I obviously can't take names, but I can tell you the share,

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like if I'm getting 10 ideas, one is definitely illegal. The other one is partially illegal.

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So I completely concur with you that right from the inception of the idea, it's a good idea to

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consult a lawyer, which may not appear so important to founders at that time who have so many things

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to figure out. Yeah, you can actually just consider it as an investment, investment of resources,

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which can give you, you know, an insured return. So it's just like, if you're stepping into

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something, there is only a person who's skilled at it and who's authorized to advocate or guide

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you on that particular front. So it is very important to have them on board right from the

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inception of the organization. Wow. So we spoke about so many regulations and their regulations

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are coming every day, which are affecting your company. So as an in-house counsel, how you stay

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abreast of all the legal developments? So, I mean, it would be more from an organizational

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standpoint also, and an individual standpoint also. So in the organizations, I think there are

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teams who on a regular basis keep on updating about the regulations or the changes in the

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regulations. But at the same time, it is your individual effort as well, where you can be

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subscribed to certain kind of updates or, you know, certain search engines, which can constantly

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keep you updated with respect to any changes in law or regulation. And I think LinkedIn is

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absolutely a very good platform for the same. Wow. Great advice there. We spoke about staying

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abreast of statutory developments, and we also touched upon the importance of legal research,

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especially in the early part of your career. So any tips and tricks that you would like to

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share with our young listeners? As I stated earlier, there is no shortcut to learning

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and learning by the text that is available. So as a lawyer, I don't know about the other profession,

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and I'm sure that it is similar in the other professions as well. But if you really want to

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be at pace with your counterparts, your colleagues in the same profession, it is very important that

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you should have something over and above of what other people have, which is, of course,

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knowledge. And there couldn't be anything equivalent to knowledge. You can only speak

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when you know something about it. Otherwise, you're just beating around the bush, honestly.

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So it's very important that you develop and mandatorily develop the habit of reading

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and keeping yourself at pace with what is happening, especially in your field.

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If you're associated to one line of business, you should know what developments are happening

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in that space. If not all, there's no shortcut to reading and learning. And it's quite interesting

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if you develop it as a hobby, as a habit and as an art, there is no challenge as such.

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Wow, great advice. Any tools that you really like to use?

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Not really. I prefer, I mean, even if it's court case, I prefer reading it on the website of the

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High Court, Supreme Court or District Court as the case may be. But for case laws and, you know,

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updates, I think Life Law and Bar and Bench is really nice. That way, it gives you a gist

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sometimes, which is really helpful. And I would say that I'm slightly technologically

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challenged on this aspect, but I prefer reading. No worries there. So yeah, it's the time for rapid

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fire round again. So my first question is, if you could use only one law for the rest of your

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career, what would it be? Constitution law. Okay, great insightful answer there.

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The next question is, if animals could sue, which species do you think would be most litigious?

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Dog. Yeah. How can you leave me at home? Yeah. What's your favorite legal TV show or drama

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or movie by that? I'm sorry, I don't watch much. You haven't watched Toots or there was this movie,

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right? In which, anyways, let's move on to the next question. Does having a law degree

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help you win arguments at home? No, no, I don't like mixing my professional and personal life.

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But you have the same skill set, right? Yeah. Yes. I mean, I could say that it is not the cause

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and effect rather this was something which was there in me and which actually persuaded me to

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pursue this profession. So yeah, no, I think being a lawyer is used against me because even

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when I'm winning an argument on an apprehension and bias, they feel like you are winning this

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argument because you're a lawyer, you know, you just know how to argue. But when in the family,

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you also have a lawyer with whom you're arguing. I don't think that that stands true because both

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of them. That's true, right? If you could face any lawyer dead or alive in a court,

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which one would it be? That's a very tough question. I would like to argue opposite

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Ramjeet Malani. Yeah, good, good choice there. So yeah, as we are running out of time, we have just

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time for one more question. In the end, do you have any advice for aspiring lawyers who are

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interested in pursuing a path similar to yours? See, law and the role of an in-house counsel is

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just like mathematics. If you get the formula right, everything is not that tough for you.

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But getting the formula right is important and that only comes by reading and understanding.

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And law as a profession is beautiful because it is the only profession which gives you the leverage

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of interpreting and coming to a particular understanding, which is not there in any other

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profession. So use your imagination, use your creativity, but only when you have a knowledge

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about it. So just read, learn, read, learn. That's all. Wow. Great insights there. Raguni, thanks for

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coming on the podcast. It was really interesting and enlightening. Thank you so much for having me

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and thanks a lot to all the listeners for listening to me. And it was such a pleasure to be there.

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Thank you so much. It's completely our pleasure.

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So this wraps up the part two of our insightful conversation with Rukmini Sinha. Her expertise

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and perspectives have certainly given us a deeper understanding of the challenges and

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opportunities in the field of law. We hope you also found today's episode as enriching as we did.

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If you missed the part one, make sure to check it out for more on Rukmini's professional journey

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and foundational experiences. And thank you dear listeners for joining us once again.

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Don't forget to subscribe, leave a review and stay tuned for more exciting episodes on

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LexDiscuss Cafe. This is your host, Avinash Tripathi signing off. Until the next time,

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stay curious, stay caffeinated.